SuperBetter Uses The Psychology Of Game Play To Empower Youth And Young Adults With Keith Wakeman

SuperBetter Uses The Psychology Of Game Play To Empower Youth And Young Adults With Keith Wakeman

[00:00:00] John Cordray: Today's episode is really exciting to me because some of you know I worked in a school system for about four years and my job, my role as a licensed therapist was to help kids who had the most severe trauma and abuse and neglect in their background. And one of the biggest things that we were doing as a school system was helping along the lines of social and emotional learning.

[00:00:24] John Cordray: And that's called. And I was really, really interesting and really loved helping the school learn how to help the kids who are struggling and help them learn to, to sit still in class or help them to finish their work and, and succeed and, and, and transition on to the next grade. And it was really amazing.

[00:00:45] John Cordray: And so today I'm really excited because this is something that I wish I had when I was in. Working in schools and it's super better and super better is a digital education and mental wellbeing company. And so the title of [00:01:00] this episode is Super Better, uses the Psychology of Gameplay to Empower Youth and Young Adults with Keith Wakeman coming up.

[00:01:11] John Cordray: Welcome to the Mental Health Today Show. My name is John Cordray and I'm a licensed therapist and I'm the host of the show and I am delighted that you are here. Really appreciate you wherever you're coming from. Some of you are in the mental health field, others of.

[00:01:25] John Cordray: Are listening because you are looking for help and maybe some tips and, and, and maybe you're wanting to know what's the newest within the mental health space. And this is great because I am interviewing a lot of different people and very, very interesting people, and today is one of those interesting people that I wanna introduce you to.

[00:01:44] John Cordray: His name is Keith Wakeman and he is the CEO and co-founder of Super. And as I said before, it's a digital education and mental wellbeing company and super better. The framework uses the psychology of [00:02:00] gameplay to empower youth and young adults to build skills, overcome obstacles, and achieve their goals.

[00:02:08] John Cordray: So cool. And with published studies show that playing super better improves resilience in mental health, and over 1 million people have played super better mobile in web app, and so super better is also the recent winner of the World Economic Forum Youth Mental Health Challenge. So cool. Keith, welcome to the 

[00:02:32] Kieth Wakeman: show.

[00:02:34] Kieth Wakeman: Thank you John. I'm thrilled to be here. . 

[00:02:37] John Cordray: Well, I just wanna get right to it and one of the things, Keith, that, that I like to do, Tell us a little bit about you before we get into Super better. Tell us a story or backstory and, and then maybe why, why super better? Why did you decide to co-found it and where was the brain child from this?

[00:02:57] Kieth Wakeman: Yeah. Well, yeah. Let me, let me take, take you through the [00:03:00] story. So I, I started my career in the food industry. So I have a brand management background. I work for large food companies like Nabisco, Kebler, and Kellogg. And I found, I, you know, I enjoyed, you know, growing brands, but I really enjoyed, had lots of opportunities to lead innovation teams, new product development, you know, strategic new venture and growth teams for these large companies.

[00:03:21] Kieth Wakeman: And, you know, that, that became my passion. How do we, you know, identify market needs and, and solve those needs and, and create new products as well. And kinda the way I, you know, sometimes tell, tell the story is this, during, during my time in the food industry, I spent about seven. With ER and Kellogg and of course ER is known as a cookie company.

[00:03:43] Kieth Wakeman: And you know, and Kellogg has lots of, you know, snacks as well. And so one day, you know, I counted up, you know, towards the end of those seven years, you know, how many new cookies had I, or the teams that were reporting to me, you know, how many did cookies did we introduce? And there was over 30 [00:04:00] cookies and.

[00:04:00] Kieth Wakeman: You know, intellectually, you know, I love the problem solving nature of it. So, you know, intellectually I'm like, this is great. I could, you know, keep doing that. But in terms of making the world a better place, you know, I'm not sure the, the world really needs another new cookie. Some people argue with me when I say that, and that's okay, and that's okay.

[00:04:16] Kieth Wakeman: We can have opinions about that, but the world does need other kinds of innovation. And so that kinda led me to, for about a decade, I ran a, a innovation. In strategy consulting business that worked in with partners, large and small and global organizations to help identify new business and growth areas in healthier foods.

[00:04:38] Kieth Wakeman: Not surprisingly, given my food background, but also in this area that, that, that super better lives in around, you know, scalable models that help people live better as well. And, and the reason super better. So, you know, the, the, the why for me is, is. When I was running the consulting business, one of our clients for about three and a half years was a large global [00:05:00] healthcare company, and we did a lot of research on, you know, what in the wellness space and in the health space.

[00:05:05] Kieth Wakeman: But you know what, in the wellness arena, most programs that are designed to help people live healthier or do self-improvement or lose weight, most of. Over the long term or not very successful, right? So the near, near term outcomes can be great, but you know, even like a weight loss program, the gold standards, weight loss programs with great science behind them and everything else.

[00:05:28] Kieth Wakeman: If you know, if a hundred people start a, a weight loss program today, there's a good chance that 95% of them at the end of that year, of a year would. You know, gain back all of their way to maybe even gain back more so as well. So I, I got just really interested with my, with my brand management background.

[00:05:43] Kieth Wakeman: You know, a lot of innovation happens when we shift the frame of reference, right? So the frame of reference is just, that is what we compare things to. So, Like when Starbucks first introduced their coffee, it wasn't, you know, the, the frame of reference wasn't commodity coffee, which is what their, their product [00:06:00] was competing against.

[00:06:01] Kieth Wakeman: They, they shifted the frame of reference to this whole third place and the coffee experience and like, so, so there's just, you know, lots and lots of examples of how. Frame of references can just create real big innovation breakthroughs. So I started looking at, you know, what are, what are the major existing frames of references that connect back to behavior change and psychology that, you know, what exists today that could potentially be repurposed in order to help people have more success in, in making the changes that they're, they might be interested in, in doing.

[00:06:33] Kieth Wakeman: And, and the number one, Frame of reference that we found that is out there today is video game play Today, 3 billion people around the world play video games. That's over 40% of the world's population here in the us. Two thirds of adults and three quarters of children under the age of 18 routinely play video games as well.

[00:06:56] Kieth Wakeman: So, and when we play video games, we have this, this different [00:07:00] mindset, right? We're, we're focused on a goal, we're courageous, we're we're creative, we're willing to take chances, right? So, And so there's, there is a, you know, something happens when we, when we kind of, our brains and, and our bodies go into gameplay mode, that doesn't necessarily happen just in everyday life.

[00:07:14] Kieth Wakeman: And so, you know, the idea behind supervisors is just that we, we can use the skills and the strength that we use and just naturally display when we play games to be stronger and more resilient and to overcome obstacles within, within the real world. So that got me excited about Super better. And this idea, Of, you know, leveraging this familiar framework of gameplay in all of life and in order to, you know, create something that can really empower people to, to be more successful.

[00:07:44] Kieth Wakeman: Well, I really 

[00:07:44] John Cordray: love that. And, and you literally are meeting them where they're at and where they hang out. And you're right. Video games is, is there's something about video games that captures their attention. And my son that resonate with this because [00:08:00] my son is a semi-pro gamer. And he and his team are going to Argentina here in about a month to play in a tournament.

[00:08:09] John Cordray: And then he is playing in a great, like at the Olympics for eSports. His team is going to ballet in December and they're gonna be playing this humongous game. And they are representing the us so it's like the Olympics. And he started, now I'm, I take credit for this. So his mom, his mom gets mad at me, but I take credit for this.

[00:08:31] John Cordray: When he was very young, I introduced him to Game Cube, the Nintendo game Cube. And he's a very fidgety, he has adhd and but yet somehow when he played on the Game Cube and now. He's able to do things that I never even dreamed of, but yet he's able to do it. His brain is wired that way. Mine's not. And so I can see how super butter can meet [00:09:00] the, the youth and the young adults where they're at, and there's something about it that that creates attention and focus.

[00:09:07] John Cordray: And why not give them the ability to build those new skills? And create the resilience, because let's face it, we, we all face hard hardships, but young adults and youth are starting to face those obstacles early. And so you, you are just rephrasing and reframing basically the obstacles inside a game that they get.

[00:09:32] John Cordray: You're going into 

[00:09:33] Kieth Wakeman: their. Yeah. And John, that's, that's exactly right. And, and so super is not a video game. We're not an immersive experience that takes, takes youth and young adults outta the world. But we use the same framework that's very familiar in video game play to help them look at the world in a different way.

[00:09:51] Kieth Wakeman: And, and it's a simple, you and I could have one conversation, you know, about all the, you know, psychological strengths that are built by the different rules of playing suit [00:10:00] better. But to the player, to these, these young folks, it's just a. You're going for an epic win is one of the rules, right? You're setting a goal, right?

[00:10:06] Kieth Wakeman: So, so it feels like a game where you're activating powerups, which are quick, simple things that boost your energy, you know, to, to us. We would know it usually, you know, evokes positive emotions and there's good things where we can help shift the ratio of positives, negative emotions in people's lives, or battling bad guys, you know, which are obstacles they get in the get in the way.

[00:10:24] Kieth Wakeman: Of your goals or, or your progress. And by naming those, those obstacles bad guys, we now have some more control and power over them and we can try different strategies to defeat them. So it's a, it's a, it's a framework that, again, it's very familiar, but it, but it's application to, you know, helping people look at the world in a different way.

[00:10:42] Kieth Wakeman: That's, that's very empowering is, is kinda the novelty of, of what we do. Yeah, 

[00:10:48] John Cordray: I get that. Yeah. That is so cool. Cause you're speaking their. So I get it. It's not a, an actual video game itself, but the, the elements to it is kind of a, I don't know, maybe the right [00:11:00] word. Maybe it's gamified in a way. It's where it's easy to to see, but there's, there are obstacles and, and, and they're able to get to the other side, so to speak.

[00:11:11] John Cordray: And so just like, just like they 

[00:11:12] Kieth Wakeman: would in a video game. That's exactly right, Chad. And if. We can have a, a brief conversation. You use the word gamified, we can have a brief conversation around gamification. So, so we use, we call what we do gameful design, and, and we do that as a way to distinguish it from gamification.

[00:11:32] Kieth Wakeman: And so gamification and, and gamification is the hot buzz buzzword in the industry. Everybody uses it and it's fine. You. People can say what we do is, is gamified. It's not, we don't, we don't take offense to that, but gamification is the use of game elements and non-game settings. So you could think badges, points, leaderboards.

[00:11:53] Kieth Wakeman: Usually these game techniques are added to provide a bit of extrinsic motivation to incent some type of a desired [00:12:00] behavior. And again, it's gamification in that using that way, it's neither good nor bad. It's a tool that can be used and, and as appropriate in settings, gameful design, and kind of the way that we.

[00:12:09] Kieth Wakeman: Design and, and think about the super, it's, it starts philosophically in a very different place, you know, so instead of starting with, you know, badges and pointed leaderboards, you know, we start with the question of what makes video game play so attractive? The 3 billion people around the world on a regular basis volunteer their time to enthusiastically play.

[00:12:33] Kieth Wakeman: And I guarantee John, the answer is not badges and points in leader words. Right. It's, it's much more intrinsic, you know, motivation. It's things like you having a sense of agency or, you know, developing a sense of mastery in game or autonomy or the sense of when you're playing games, you're, you're, you're getting constant feedback.

[00:12:50] Kieth Wakeman: You're always pushing yourself to see what you're capable of in games and you're it's okay to fail in games, right? There's a setting where where people, you know, often fail [00:13:00] 80% of the time, and, but yet you, you, you kind bounce back. You, you know, take on a different strategy, approach the problem of the obstacle in a different way to try to succeed.

[00:13:09] Kieth Wakeman: And, and today about over half of all video game play to today is now social as well, so there's also. You know, increasingly a social connection, motivating people to, to play as well. So gainful design starts with all of that, kind of the, the, the more fundamental psychology of what makes games attractive.

[00:13:28] Kieth Wakeman: And then how do we build that into a framework that helps people look at the world. In a different way. And and it's not that, again, it's not that we w don't have, you know, badges and points in, in the super experience and, and, and there're five, but we don't start with badges and points. Just start in a, a more basic of what is, you know, how do we leverage these strengths and gameplay in the real world?

[00:13:50] Kieth Wakeman: Well, I, 

[00:13:51] John Cordray: I really appreciate you bringing out that distinct. Because that's, I'll, I'll admit I said gamification, didn't I? And, and, and so that's where my [00:14:00] mind went. And I would imagine a lot of people's mind might go there. So I really, really appreciate the distinction there. And, and what was that again?

[00:14:08] John Cordray: The gameplay, 

[00:14:10] Kieth Wakeman: we call it gameful design. Gainful design, 

[00:14:13] John Cordray: okay. I like that. And so that to me means that you are paying attention to the elements of a. And the design that you're making is very intentional, and you mentioned that one of the things that this super better does is helps. Young adults and, and youth build skills, what do you mean by that?

[00:14:38] John Cordray: What are some skills, what would you say? Because if there's a lot of parents that listen to this and they're probably, you know, thinking, oh my, my son, my daughter might be really interested in this, but what exactly are some of the game skills or build the building skills? 

[00:14:52] Kieth Wakeman: Yeah. So when, when we talk about skills, they can be of varied types of skills.

[00:14:58] Kieth Wakeman: So some skills would fall in [00:15:00] the, the world of coping skills, mental health, coping skills, you know, some would, would fall in the realm of social and emotional skills. So the research shows that plans do better, builds resilience, and it does, and, and the way that. Define actually the literature, the public literature defines, you know, what, what creates higher resilience.

[00:15:21] Kieth Wakeman: It's the development of, it's proactively developing skills like optimism, life satisfaction, self-efficacy, which is the belief that we can be successful in achieving, achieving our goals, you know, and kinda social skills and social social connection as well. The other way that that resilience is built is by overcoming barriers to resilience, which are things like developing skills to help reduce anxiety or, or reduce, reduce depression.

[00:15:51] Kieth Wakeman: So, you know, we talk about resilience as kind of a, a, one of the key benefits, but there's a, there's a lot of components to resilience that, you know, in, in and of themselves, [00:16:00] you know, can be, can be very powerful. Now, the content, so that's the, the framework of super better helps with all of that. Now there's almost an unlimited.

[00:16:09] Kieth Wakeman: An amount of types of content, or in the current version of ett, they're called power packs. We're, we're working on a new version that will be available in January. We're changing the language to, to challenges, you know, so in the world of skills for, you know, for these challenges, you know, the, what we're introducing in January, we'll have a whole library of challenges, focus specifically on social and emotional skills, so promoting empathy.

[00:16:37] Kieth Wakeman: Self regulation and, and skills, you know, within those areas as well. I 

[00:16:42] John Cordray: love it. I love it. And this is, this empowers them. So I'm assuming that you, people listening can go right to the app store and download this? 

[00:16:52] Kieth Wakeman: Absolutely. There's, there's a version on the website and there's mobile apps. The current version of Super Better is a hundred percent free to play and [00:17:00] so you can get a great experience around it and today's super better.

[00:17:06] Kieth Wakeman: You know, we fall in the world of self-help apps and we're, you know, recognized as a credible self-help app cuz we've got the, the research and media sometimes will, will include us on list of best apps for mental health and, and wellbeing. And you know, sometimes we're right there next to the comps and headspace that are commercially, you know, unicorns in our space and much further along commercially, you know, but we love that we're kinda seen within that, that kinda a peer set in terms.

[00:17:31] Kieth Wakeman: What we offer now, we're, we're of course very different than a meditation app in terms of, of how we, you know, how we do things as well. But what we're introducing in January, As we talk to professionals, you know, teachers or therapists or folks at the university level, often they will recommend super better to the young people they serve and, and we love that, but we'll also hear from them and say, wow, it would be great if Supered was more of a tool.

[00:17:56] Kieth Wakeman: Versus just a self-help that we could recommend. And so we're building [00:18:00] that, we call it squad play. So you could think of the self app version as kinda like solo play. You're working on your own stuff. It's not solo. Cause you do recruit allies to support you wins with. It allows anyone who teaches or trains or coaches or supports or counsels others to host super better challenges for them.

[00:18:24] Kieth Wakeman: And so, for example, a teacher could host they could go to the, the library and select a five day challenge, you know, focused on developing and practicing the skill of empathy in the real world. And they can host that for the students in their classroom. And the, the. The teacher in this case, they would likely, you know, optionally, but they would likely, you know, spend a few minutes in class at the beginning of the challenge just talking about empathy and we're gonna this, you know, challenge and then at the end wrap then they would just, you know, they would be able to, within their host administrative.

[00:18:57] Kieth Wakeman: Panel, you know, monitor progresses. Our [00:19:00] students are, are, are, are playing. The students are playing on their web mobile device. They can play in class, but it works. This works really well for a flip classroom model where they can play outside of class and for social emotional learning. Well, I, I think every teacher in America.

[00:19:16] Kieth Wakeman: Now, you know, especially after the pandemic believes in the power of social emotional learning, but they still in, you know, they still don't have any more time in their classrooms to devote to it cause they've got all of their other re requirements and. State requirements and testing and classroom management.

[00:19:31] Kieth Wakeman: So nothing went away. So the, the ability for a tool like to be used with a flip classroom model where a lot of the activities the students are playing, you know, just for five or 10 minutes a day, but they're outside of class, provides a lot of flexibility for the teachers. The teachers as well. And so John, that's what we're, you know, that's what we're, what we're building for the January, the January launch and teachers is a target, but we're, we're talking to, you know, and getting feedback from, you know, a lot of [00:20:00] potential.

[00:20:00] Kieth Wakeman: We, we think of it as use case a bit, but, but situations where, where squad play can be helpful. So, you know, therapists are coming in and saying, wow, we're really excited about it, especially if they have adolescent and, and young adult patients and that they're serving with their practice. Employers are, you sharing a lot of interest about improving employee resilience and mental health, employee higher resilience.

[00:20:22] Kieth Wakeman: The literature says that employees with higher resilience are more agile, you know, productive adaptable, they're better able to withstand burnout, right? So there's, there's the mental health component that all the employers today are worried about, but there's also the resilience component that helps build stronger employees in terms of some of the, the business metrics as well.

[00:20:40] Kieth Wakeman: So, and of course, at the college level, this is a, and, and your son in the eSport. Community. I mean, those are, those are great you places, you know, an eSports club, you know, could certainly subscribe and host super better challenges for club members. Right. So the, there's a lot of versatility and flexibility in terms of the, the utility of, of what we're building [00:21:00] with squad play.

[00:21:01] Kieth Wakeman: Well, I'd 

[00:21:01] John Cordray: love that. And you, you mentioned earlier about some published studies. That show that playing supered actually improves resilience in mental health. Can you tell us a little bit about those studies? 

[00:21:13] Kieth Wakeman: Sure, sure, sure. So, so one of the studies is a randomized control trial. It was conducted by the University of Pennsylvania.

[00:21:22] Kieth Wakeman: That trial showed that playing super better for 30 days significantly reduced anxiety and depression in the kinda in order of magnitude. There's a, a baseline assessment, and then assessments were done every two weeks. So the, the intervention was four weeks, but, but then there was a, a follow up, two weeks later, it's six weeks.

[00:21:43] Kieth Wakeman: So at six weeks, the number of symptoms or the score of symptoms related to depression had de declined by 49%, and for anxiety had declined by 61%. So that we're talking about, you know, Very significant [00:22:00] decreases in the number of symptoms in a relatively short period of time. That trial the, the field of research now in digital mental health is, is grown where, There have now been enough published randomized control trials, you know, our, our UPenn study and, and you know, many others now.

[00:22:19] Kieth Wakeman: And so, so other researchers are starting to do meta-analysis where they look across all the published studies and draw conclusions. And so our, our UPenn studies is in, you know, I think all of them are, most of them and, and you know, what they show is that we, we compare, you know, quite favorably also in terms of, of kinda the, the effect size of, of.

[00:22:39] Kieth Wakeman: Intervention. In fact, when the first met analysis came out, this was, you know, a few years ago, but the when the first ones came out, we actually had the, had the greatest effect size for reducing anxiety and depression in the first meta analysis. We don't, that's not always the case. And these meta analysis look at, you know, they have different factors.

[00:22:55] Kieth Wakeman: So, and frankly, we don't, our goal is not necessarily to have the greatest effect sizes, [00:23:00] just to be, you know, very effective as, as well. But so that, that's, you know, that's kinda the, the study that's mo most cited. We also have a clinical trial. That was completed at the Ohio State Wexner Medical Center in Cincinnati Children's Hospital.

[00:23:14] Kieth Wakeman: It evaluated super better among teenagers with persistent concussion or post concussion syndrome. And it was a, a trial, it was a, it was a smaller sample size, but the it showed that. Provider to gather with medical care for for these teenagers with persistent concussion created a, a much greater reduction in concussion symptoms than only receiving traditional care.

[00:23:41] Kieth Wakeman: Well, 

[00:23:41] John Cordray: that's amazing. And I, and I know that there are parents listening to this and maybe they've tried to get their child to go to therapy, and I know you're not advocating this instead of therapy. However, I know that a lot of parents struggle with getting their child to go to therapy and they refuse.

[00:23:59] John Cordray: And, and, and [00:24:00] some parents just give up and it's not worth the fight. But this is not threaten. And this speaks their language and it's not in place of therapy. But if someone is not able to go to a therapist or does not want to go to therapist and they refuse, this is something that they can do in their privacy of wherever they are.

[00:24:21] John Cordray: And nobody will know. They don't have to be embarrassed. But yet it could still teach 'em the skills and, and help them overcome the obstacles in their life. And that is amazing because it eliminates a lot. I think it helps destigmatize mental health as well. 

[00:24:38] Kieth Wakeman: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's absolutely, and we agree this, we're, we would never position supered or any technical solution as an alternative to, to therapy.

[00:24:46] Kieth Wakeman: But it, but it, we kind of think about, you know, there's a spectrum of, we certainly uniquely play in the, the prevention side, so skill building, you know, coping skills in those kinds of areas and. You know, maybe not [00:25:00] significant or high degree of, of anxiety depression if you know it. More of an intermediate level, so better.

[00:25:06] Kieth Wakeman: Can play a role, but then we, we, like, we really love the idea of if somebody is in therapy, that they can use the therapist and the patient can use super better as a tool to provide that support on a daily basis between sessions, maybe to build skills or reinforce, you know, some of the things that, that are, that are discussed and being worked on within the sessions as well.

[00:25:26] John Cordray: Yeah, I love it. So tell us again where we can find super better, both the mobile and 

[00:25:33] Kieth Wakeman: web app. All right, so, so the, the easiest thing to do is go to super better.com. There's a web version, so you can create, account, can create an account, right on the website. You can also link, there's a link there to the Google Play Store and the Apple, the app store as well, depending on the device that you have.

[00:25:50] Kieth Wakeman: And you can download the, the mobile, the mobile apps there. 

[00:25:53] John Cordray: Okay. Excellent. And I'll, I'll put all that information in the show notes. So if someone's driving or they can't [00:26:00] remember, they can go right to the show notes and, and access. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, before I let you go, Keith, one of the things a question that I ask, I try to ask all of my guests.

[00:26:11] John Cordray: I, I talk a lot about self care and we're talking about super better and, and helping youth and young adults build skills and overcome obstacles. And one of those is building and working on self care. And I, I'm curious, are there things that you do for you, just for you, for your self? 

[00:26:33] Kieth Wakeman: Absolutely.

[00:26:34] Kieth Wakeman: Absolutely. Yeah. Run, running a an early stage business requires a balance of, of, you know, lots of hard work and, and, and self care as well. So, so there's a couple things. So I, I use this better framework. I may or may not, you know, kind of log into the app to use it, but I, I. You know, use kind of the concepts of power ups, you know, kind of doing quick things to, you know, care for myself that give me positive energy or positive emotions.

[00:26:59] Kieth Wakeman: [00:27:00] So the, the power ups and, and sometimes it can be as, you know, as simple as, you know, if I'm just feeling really, really fatigued, you know, I might go, you know, find a place to, you know, to sit and close my eyes for five minutes and, and, you know, in that area, I, I personally find the bad guy rule to be.

[00:27:17] Kieth Wakeman: Helpful. Bad guys are obstacles that get in the way of, of goals. And so, you know, anytime you're one of the bad guys in super better from the app is called the self critic. It's that little voice inside you that says, you know, you're not good enough, you're gonna fail. And I think we all have that to some degree, right?

[00:27:33] Kieth Wakeman: So, so sometimes I'll come out of a meeting and just kind of feel this. Like, Ooh, like this, you know, kind of backwards momentum instead of forward momentum. And, and I'll be like, wow, that's, that's the self critic, and I can kind of, you know, point to it and then I can, you know, use different, different strategies to kind of, you know, make it go away.

[00:27:51] Kieth Wakeman: You know, either to call it a flat out lie, you know, or, or to, you know, take some, some time to kind of reflect on why I'm feeling that as, as well. So, so the two better [00:28:00] f. Is, you know, part of the way that I kind of just naturally look at the world, you know, as, as well. And then, and then the other thing, I, I love to get out in nature, so, you know, walks and those kinds of things.

[00:28:11] Kieth Wakeman: My decompressing time in my self care time often is, is, you know, doing things outside. 

[00:28:16] John Cordray: Nice. I'm same way with that. Well, very, very cool. And Keith, this has been a, a joy getting to know you a little bit and getting to. Really the power of super better. And boy, you know, it's right there at our fingertips, literally.

[00:28:30] John Cordray: And people can go right now. And you mentioned that it's free to download, correct? 

[00:28:35] Kieth Wakeman: It's free to download. It's free to download. That's right, that's right, that's right. You know, and, and we can't do free forever, unfortunately, we're not independently wealthy individuals, but so in, in January when we introduce squad play, we'll, we'll add a subscription, but it's very, Our, our goal is impact our, our North Star.

[00:28:52] Kieth Wakeman: The way we look at the world is we wanna unlock the heroic potential of 50 million youth and young adults in the next five years. And so our [00:29:00] goal is, you know, be very affordable. You know, don't, don't create large barriers. You know, encourage, like with squad play, instead of asking young people to pay, you know, often it's gonna be the teacher or the school or the therapist or the practice or the, or the employer that that's, Gonna pay as well.

[00:29:17] Kieth Wakeman: So, you know, even when we add the subscription, you know, typically when we talk about the price points, you know, if the the response is, wow, that's really affordable. And that's the goal is we want this to be very accessible. 

[00:29:29] John Cordray: Nice. Well, it definitely is and wanted just say a congratulations for Super Better being the recent winter of the World Economic Forum.

[00:29:38] John Cordray: That's really cool. Thank you. Well done. Well, I'm gonna let you go in. And I appreciate you and I appreciate what Super better is offering so many millions of people right now and millions more will be able to have the benefits of that. And that's really cool. And I wanna thank all of you who are listening and maybe this is the first time that you've tuned in.[00:30:00] 

[00:30:00] John Cordray: I appreciate you sticking it out because I interview so many interesting people around the mental health. And you'll wanna keep tuning in because you're gonna learn a lot of different things, but you're also gonna learn how you can start continuing to work on your mental health. I offer tips all the time.

[00:30:17] John Cordray: I talk to therapists all the time here on the show, and I want you, my goal is for you to continue to look at your mental health and to work on it and not let the mental health that you struggle with get you down. And I'm here to encourage you and to inspire. And that's what this show is all about. Make sure you go to mental health today show.com.

[00:30:39] John Cordray: Again, that's Mental health today, show.com. You can see all of our blogs and, and all of the episodes right there for you. And I want you to go and, and let me know what'd you think about this episode. You can do that there. So I'm gonna let you go. Thank you so much, and remember the Mental Health Today Show has been championing your [00:31:00] mental health since 2015.

[00:31:03] John Cordray: Take care of my friends.