When Should You Seek Couples Counseling With Elizabeth Hinkle

When Should You Seek Couples Counseling With Elizabeth Hinkle

[00:00:00] John Cordray: You're in a relationship, chances are you probably have had some conflict maybe to the point where it gets pretty serious, and whether you're married or you're dating, you have a partner, you're living with somebody, a lot of times there's a lot of conflict. And so today we're gonna be talking about when you should seek couples counseling with my special guest, Elizabeth Hink.

[00:00:26] John Cordray: And Elizabeth is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and so we're gonna be talking about when should you seek couples counseling coming right up.

[00:00:34] John Cordray: Welcome to The Mental Health Today Show. My name is John Cordray and I am a licensed therapist and I am the host of this.

[00:00:41] John Cordray: So glad that you are tuning in. And my guess probably most of you are who are listening to this are in a relationship, and so I think this is gonna be a very pertinent topic for you, is when you should seek couples counseling. And as I said at the very beginning, my [00:01:00] guest is Elizabeth Hinkle and she is a li, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she's licensed in three different states, Virginia, Kansas, and Washington.

[00:01:10] John Cordray: And she has a telehealth private practice, MH Matters llc. And, and Elizabeth started her career as a recreation therapist and had the opportunity to work with military and veterans, the elderly, and a. And it was during this time when she was trained in dialectical behavioral therapy or D B T. And Elizabeth sees individual clients of all ages as well as couples and uses a systematic perspective to provide support for relationships, parenting, and family dynamics.

[00:01:48] John Cordray: Fantastic. Elizabeth, welcome to the show. Hi John. Thanks so much. Well you're welcome and I appreciate you taking some time to come out and, and talk to us. I know you are a [00:02:00] licensed marriage and family therapist. You do a lot of couples counseling and so I'm really happy that you decided to come on so we can talk about this cuz this is a pretty big issue that probably is not talked a whole lot about and that is when should couples seek counsel?

[00:02:16] John Cordray: And so I figured let's bring the expert on . Sounds great. Nice. So before we get to that though, I would love to know a little bit about your backstory. Maybe, maybe it's before you became a licensed marriage and family therapist, but tell us a little story about who Elizabeth is. 

[00:02:38] Elizabeth Hinkle: Sure. You got a. Tiny preview, spoiler alert in my bio that you read and so I'll, I'll go a little bit back.

[00:02:48] Elizabeth Hinkle: Before that, I grew up in a family filled with educators. My parents both were in education and both of my aunts and grandparents, and [00:03:00] many people in my family. My sister's a teacher. So I thought that's what I was going to do because that came very naturally to me and I love kids. I always have. So I set out to become an elementary school teacher.

[00:03:15] Elizabeth Hinkle: Then in college I heard about recreation therapy, and so my life got sort of redirected towards mental health via recreation therapy because I have this amazing. Internship very early in my career before I even finished college at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, I worked on the in-patient psychiatric unit.

[00:03:38] Elizabeth Hinkle: So that was my introduction, official introduction to mental health, and that's where I developed a passion and interest and a lot of love for. Mental health and so kind of weaved, you know, through recreation therapy with different age groups and settings and [00:04:00] populations. And then fast forward to deciding to go to graduate school.

[00:04:05] Elizabeth Hinkle: And again, this sort of was one of those things where, you know, I, I'm sure this happens to all of us. We kind of think we're going in one direction. So I thought school counseling made a lot of sense for. With my history of being, you know, interested in, in education and I had done some work in special education through high school and college and started out to go to a program.

[00:04:30] Elizabeth Hinkle: I was living in Connecticut at the time. in school counseling and through a sequence of just, you know, interesting small things, some having to do with my college gpa. I'll be honest, , I ended up deciding on marriage and family therapy and I'm so, so glad I did because that turned out to be really the best fit for me.

[00:04:53] Elizabeth Hinkle: I have had the opportunity throughout my career since bachelor's level to work [00:05:00] again with just so many different groups of people in all ages, and I love variety. So that is how I sort of got, you know, up to this point. And as an mft, I did a lot of work in community mental health type setting, a non-profit agency with adolescents and families.

[00:05:20] Elizabeth Hinkle: That's what I was doing for the most part before starting my own private practice. 

[00:05:26] John Cordray: So there, I'm sure there's a a lot of twist and turns. With all that as well. And you're right, it's a journey and a lot of times things happen in our lives, they kinda redirect us and, and so that's that's really cool.

[00:05:40] John Cordray: Thank you for sharing that. So you, you became a, a licensed marriage and family therapist and that that takes a while to get fully licensed. And now you, you have a private practice. And the private practice that you have now, is it a hundred percent telehealth? It is. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Now, did it start out that way or is that something that you transition from an office to te.

[00:06:09] Elizabeth Hinkle: It started out that way. I started a year ago part-time, and then I have gone full-time and it is 100% virtual. Through covid and the Pandemic, we obviously have had a better access. The access isn't still great for everyone. However, there is more access. I, as you mentioned, am licensed in Kansas and Washington State.

[00:06:34] Elizabeth Hinkle: Obviously there'd be no way of me physically seeing people. I am based out of Virginia, and that was the location for my original license. And so I added those other two license along the way in in my career. And then virtual practice makes a lot of sense for me for a lot of reasons, and I just love being able to connect with people where they are, where they live, and [00:07:00] on their terms.

[00:07:00] Elizabeth Hinkle: I can see people during their workday, as you probably know, not a lot of people could necess. Take off to drive physically to therapy. So virtual has worked out really. 

[00:07:13] John Cordray: Yeah, no, I, I agree. I started out with a private practice. It was a brick and mortar business, and it grew to two different locations and I had staff and, and it just gets a lot.

[00:07:25] John Cordray: So we're not trained are we in grad school to become business owners, . So, so we had to learn a lot to, to be, have a practice and. What an awesome thing. Now, the silver lining, I guess you would say, like you mentioned, covid comes and all of a sudden it propels the mental health field along with other fields into the future.

[00:07:46] John Cordray: And finally, finally, we are able to use technology to be able to reach as many people as possible. And you're right, I transitioned from private practice in an office. Now I'm a hundred [00:08:00] percent telehealth myself and it's, it is amazing that individuals are really taking advantage of that. I'll see. You probably do too.

[00:08:08] John Cordray: I'll see clients very early for them cuz I, I'm in three different states too, in different time zones. But it helps them, it works for them. They get up and they can have a session from home before they go. Or at, at lunchtime, like you said, in their car. Done that too. Absolutely. You're right. It definitely has opened up a lot of access.

[00:08:33] John Cordray: So tell me, Elizabeth, you, you are, we're, the title of this episode is couples counseling, but I know you, you do a lot of family as well. But with couples, how, how does that work? Virtual. 

[00:08:48] Elizabeth Hinkle: That's a great question and, and I do have couples who express a little bit of hesitation about that, and I can understand why.

[00:08:55] Elizabeth Hinkle: I think developing skills know, to your point, we weren't [00:09:00] trained in graduate school to run a business. I wasn't trained either 20 years ago to work with people virtually. So it's skills I've developed along the way with, with practice and exposure. Something I have found with couples is if they are with each other, that's the most important thing.

[00:09:19] Elizabeth Hinkle: What I have seen not work as well is if they call in from two different physical locations, there is more of a disconnect, literally, figuratively and literally. So as long as they're together sitting near each other in proximity, I can see. I don't even need to see all of them. Then I think it works really well.

[00:09:44] Elizabeth Hinkle: It's, I've had a lot of success with couples in the virtual space. 

[00:09:50] John Cordray: Well, that's really good. And I get this a lot cuz I, I'm, I'm Telehealth too and remote. Is it really that effective [00:10:00] online versus in person? And I always say, yeah, it's very effective, but what, what's your take on. 

[00:10:07] Elizabeth Hinkle: I say to clients, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think it was effective.

[00:10:11] Elizabeth Hinkle: So there's that . Yes, 

[00:10:13] John Cordray: that's exactly right. Now it is, it is very effective. But I, I wanted to kind of bring that out because a lot of times when, when it's a couple at least in my experience, one person. Might really want to go to counseling, but the other is reluctant and it that person who's reluctant is really easy to come up with all the excuses why it's not gonna work out.

[00:10:38] John Cordray: And I get to see them say, well, it's, it's not that effect. How effective can it be? So do you get that a lot? Do you get the, that couples that come to see you and maybe one is the, the primary one that kind of drags in the other one? Or do you, do you see in your, your work that both of them come equally ready [00:11:00] for the counseling?

[00:11:01] Elizabeth Hinkle: I think more often than not, it is one is more ready and motivated than the other. That doesn't mean they're both not willing, so it typically doesn't work out so well if one's literally kind of being forced somehow to go. That's something I ask very early on, whose idea was this to do? And then I immediately check in with the other person and how do you think and feel about doing this?

[00:11:33] Elizabeth Hinkle: I wanna find out right away and get the temperature on. Where they are with that. And I let them know it's, it's okay to be skeptical. It's okay to wonder if this is gonna help. And certainly adding things like, you know, oh, we're skeptical because it's, it's virtual, it's telehealth, those things. I mean there's, there can always be reasons that you can find that it may or may not [00:12:00] work.

[00:12:00] Elizabeth Hinkle: So I try to really connect with people over. What they're currently feeling and thinking about it, and if they're skeptical or pessimistic about it, that's okay too. It's, it's all welcome into the session to talk through. 

[00:12:18] John Cordray: Well, I like, I like what you said there, that you turn to the person who is reluctant and you, you're validating how they feel because a lot of times.

[00:12:29] John Cordray: Again, in my experience, the person who doesn't really want to be there, they feel like they're controlled to be there, and then they, they assume that the therapist is gonna be on the side of the one that brings them in and automatically puts them on the, like a defensive. But you, you address that right away and you talk to them and you acknowledge that it might be hard, you validate 'em.

[00:12:52] John Cordray: And so I'm sure that right there kind of puts them at ease. So I like your approach. Thanks. 

[00:12:59] Elizabeth Hinkle: Yeah, [00:13:00] I, I hope it does, and I also make an extra effort to connect with the person. That's part of my training is to look at it from the systemic perspective of, and I tell you mentioned taking sides. I tell couples right off the bat, something you should know about me or I want you to know about me, is I'm not here to take anybody's.

[00:13:24] Elizabeth Hinkle: I'm on the side of your relationship and I have no agenda about what happens in your relationship to it. What the outcome is is up to you all. I'm here to help you have the relationship that you each wanna have, and if that's partly determining what's gonna happen to the relationship longer term, I'm here to help with that too, but I don't take sides.

[00:13:48] Elizabeth Hinkle: You might feel sometimes that I'm gonna agree with one person or the other. That's gonna get balanced over the course of the session and over the course of treatment, hopefully . [00:14:00] That's 

[00:14:00] John Cordray: my goal. Yeah. No, and I, and I, I think that's great that you pointed out right away. Cause I'm sure that really sets the stage for both of the partners that it kind of puts 'em at ease and you kinda let them know right up front what to expect, because I think there's a lot of misconception.

[00:14:19] John Cordray: There when it comes to counseling in general, but in particular a couple's counseling. What it's gonna look like, you know, is that this gonna be all about talking about feelings and, but again, it's easy to come up with all the reasons why it's not gonna work. So, I, I wanna transition this a little bit, Elizabeth, in, I wanna talk a little bit about, for those couples that are out.

[00:14:43] John Cordray: That are wondering, maybe they're ready. Maybe it's time to go see a therapist, or there may be couples out there that they're in crisis mode. Can you tell us a little bit, what are some pointers that you would suggest or, or [00:15:00] talk to those who are listening and when they should actually seek couple's counseling?

[00:15:06] Elizabeth Hinkle: Absolutely. Point number one from me is you don't need to wait until there's a crisis or conflict. That is a common misconception when people say we're in therapy. The assumptions can be that there must be something really wrong and it doesn't need to be that there is something really wrong. It can be.

[00:15:28] Elizabeth Hinkle: We wanna work on strengthening our relat. People go premarital or they go at any point in the relationship, and I encourage that being proactive. It's just, just like any therapy, if you're questioning or wondering if that's something that you want to do, then that's typically a sign to maybe, Hey, let's look into this.

[00:15:52] Elizabeth Hinkle: Let's talk, talk about it. Let me see what the willingness of my partner is on this, and kinda go [00:16:00] from. . And so certainly it may sound cliche from a therapist to say, you don't need to wait until there's a crisis. That is true. And sometimes when things are addressed in a more proactive way, you can prevent some of getting to the point where it feels like a crisis.

[00:16:21] John Cordray: Right? Prevention or, or even maintenance. Just checking in can be very helpful, but I know a lot of times it is waiting and waiting and maybe one partner is to the point where this is, this is not good and, and therefore I'm leaving. And the last ditch effort is counseling. And to that point, it is very difficult.

[00:16:49] John Cordray: To be able to work with both. I would imagine when they're, when they're to that stage, when they, maybe they have separated or living in two different places and, and they come to you, [00:17:00] what would be something that you would say to those who are, are at the crisis mode in their marriage or in their relationship?

[00:17:11] Elizabeth Hinkle: I encourage them to recognize that it took some time to get there, and therefore it will take some time to move back from away from that point. And so giving the process a chance is key. If one person has their foot out the door or they've separat. And one person has kind of already decided this is over for them.

[00:17:37] Elizabeth Hinkle: That can be a very tough place to then do this type of work together. It's not impossible. There's still hope. Of course, there's always hope if that's what both people are sincerely coming to do. and if they are honest with themselves, first of all, honest with [00:18:00] themselves and then each other about really what their goals are.

[00:18:04] Elizabeth Hinkle: And that's one of the first things I also ask about is what are you each hoping to get out of this process? What's that going to look like? X amount of time down the road? How much time are you right now willing to give? Some people say, you know, I don't think I can do this for very long. Okay, well let's start with where we are and see how it goes.

[00:18:27] John Cordray: Well, I think that's, that's excellent advice, and I think what you said about it, It took a while for you to get to where you're at. So it's gonna take a while to get to get back to that. And I think being realistic in that situation, but yet also encouraging and saying that there's still hope. I think that's critical and and I think that that is kind of the power of seeking couple's counsel.

[00:18:53] John Cordray: And the goal, the whole goal is to prevent the separation or the, the [00:19:00] crisis moments. But sometimes couples are there and, and so they, they want to find what, what's the next step that they can do to really try to work on their marriage or their relationship. So I think that's really good. That's excellent advice.

[00:19:16] John Cordray: Tell us a little bit about some of the things that you have seen in your practice. Maybe a relationship that wasn't doing well, but then now they're really doing well as a result of counseling. So tell us a little bit about your work and brag a little bit because I want, I want couples to hear kind of some, some hope that, You know, these, these are types of people I've seen and the, some of the, you don't have to go into the details, but kind of overall, maybe you can talk to a little bit about, maybe a couple came to you and they were really struggling, but they came and they really did some work, and then now they're much better.

[00:19:57] John Cordray: Can you tell us a little bit about 

[00:19:58] Elizabeth Hinkle: that? Sure, and [00:20:00] I'll do a very confidential, like, sort of blending of maybe a handful of couples who I've worked with over the years. Great. So that it doesn't, it's, it won't be anything specific. What's very common is for people to come and say, we're, we're not communicating well.

[00:20:16] Elizabeth Hinkle: And start to work on communication skills. And that's often a great place to start is can you really hear each other? Can you listen and reflect and validate? And, and pause before going down the traditional rabbit hole of arguments or conflict or patterns. And so all couples have patterns. It's a dance that couples do together where the more one person does one thing, the more the other person does their thing.

[00:20:52] Elizabeth Hinkle: Oftentimes there's a push pull, there's a pursuer distance or pattern. One person copes better by sort of [00:21:00] leaving the situation or shutting down, withdrawing somehow the other person feels anxious about that. So these are very common dynamics. And so part of what we do early on is just understand those dynamics, learn how to maybe not take it personally, that when my partner is withdrawing from me, Not really about them wanting to get away from me, but more about them protecting themselves.

[00:21:28] Elizabeth Hinkle: So we talk about some of those patterns and then how to gently sort of re redevelop shift those. Restructure those to feel more effective with each other. So I have had couples come who have had maybe. Affairs in Fidelity, that kind of thing. And so there's not a lot of trust in the relationship, especially on the partners side, who, you know, feels betrayed.

[00:21:59] Elizabeth Hinkle: [00:22:00] Was betrayed. So rebuilding trust can be a common theme as well. And. Then dealing with how each person expresses their emotions, handles their stress. I usually bring up at some point the typical fight, flight, freeze, and fond responses. And sometimes I'll work in some of my D B T training in terms of how are you tolerating these difficult emotions?

[00:22:29] Elizabeth Hinkle: How are you tolerating this distress? How are you self-regulating? And then co-regulating with each other to support each other and create the connection and teamwork feel that you want out of this relationship. 

[00:22:47] John Cordray: So you get all these couples coming to you from these very serious things. And do you see, do you see the end result?

[00:22:55] John Cordray: Like do couples come and, and actually stay throughout the [00:23:00] duration of their therapy? And then how, how are they when they end or, or I call it graduate from therapy, but what are some of the end results that you have? 

[00:23:12] Elizabeth Hinkle: As you probably know with any, with any type of therapy, individual, couples, family, there aren't always the kinds of endings that we as therapists would like to see with graduation and, and what we refer to as termination.

[00:23:26] Elizabeth Hinkle: Really finishing the process. And having sort of closure somehow or some type of ritual ceremony to end the process because that can feel uncomfortable for many people for a lot of reasons. And that's probably a whole separate podcast. So I won't get into that further, but I'll just say that to say that.

[00:23:48] Elizabeth Hinkle: I don't often have full, you know, sort of graduation ceremonies, rituals. I do have couples that want to, you mentioned maintenance. [00:24:00] Phase. I have people I see maybe once a month or once every so often to check in and see how they're doing. And so it depends on the motivation. It depends on how they're doing in their relationship.

[00:24:13] Elizabeth Hinkle: Sometimes people therapy when things aren't going well, when they some type of shame or judgment toward themselves about their choices and behavior. So then they'll. Continuing in therapy. Again, that can be individual couples, whichever with couples, of course, there are two people then playing into that dynamic and so if one person or the other decides, Hey, you know, I'm out of this relationship or I've done something I'm not proud of and, and so therefore I'm not gonna continue this process anymore.

[00:24:46] Elizabeth Hinkle: So it can kinda run the gamut I hope. Answered that question, . 

[00:24:51] John Cordray: No, no. And you're right. I mean, that's kind of life, right? And, but I, I wanted to bring out that there, there's a [00:25:00] specific reason for couples counseling and so it's not about pointing at the other person and saying it's all their fault. It's kind of a both and, right?

[00:25:13] John Cordray: It takes two people to get to where they're at, and I think to me, to be able to see a couple learn more about themselves. And you mentioned communication, learning better ways of communicating with one another and showing love towards one another. That's success. And there's not, there's not necessarily, even though I call it graduating from therapy, it's not like they get to a point and they're all better , but they get to the point where they've learned new skills and that.

[00:25:44] John Cordray: And they can translate that into their, in their relationship. Yeah. So. Excellent. Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much just for sharing your expertise with us today. And I know we have talked that you are booked right now. You, you're a [00:26:00] full, you have a full private practice right now and just your encouragement for those who may be, listen, What would be one last thing that you can leave?

[00:26:10] John Cordray: Just some encouragement to couples that maybe they're thinking about getting 

[00:26:16] Elizabeth Hinkle: counseling. I think I'll, I'll pick up on kind of what you said a minute ago about blaming. I definitely taking non blaming stance as a therapist. And as somebody who looks at sort of the systemic perspective, people are functioning within their relationships, but also all systems, right?

[00:26:37] Elizabeth Hinkle: Our, our family of origin, our work relationships, friendships, so couples therapy can be helpful, no matter again, what happens within your current relationship right now. It's an investment in that it's also an investment in yourself and how you show up. All relationships. And so if you're considering it, [00:27:00] I encourage it.

[00:27:01] Elizabeth Hinkle: It's worth giving a chance and encourage you to really give the process a chance. You're not gonna necessarily see a lot of shifts in the first few sessions in particular. It takes a while to, to get into it, if that's something that you are interested in, talk to your partner about it If you're also deciding.

[00:27:24] Elizabeth Hinkle: If you're going to stay in a relationship or move forward into longer term commitments, marriage or whatever that might look like, that might be a question that you wanna check in with your partner about is are they willing at some point to do that? And that will give you some information to make those decisions as well.

[00:27:45] John Cordray: I think that's great advice, so thank you for that. I appreciate that. Before I let you go though, one of the things that I like to ask my guest, I talk a lot about self care and I, I want to ask you, what are some, what are [00:28:00] some things that you do that you would consider self care for yourself? 

[00:28:04] Elizabeth Hinkle: I really enjoy taking walks and.

[00:28:10] Elizabeth Hinkle: Essentially doing things that are gonna kind of help ground me into whatever moment is happening. So back to my D B T training. I learned about mindfulness, mindfulness many years ago, but I'm also just a fan of trying to do my best to live in the now. So whether that's time with my cats or friends, I enjoy watching shows and kind of taking a break from therapy life and, and being a human, whole person outside of that as well, I love music and singing and dancing and reading, so I try to keep up with various activities and things for myself outside of therapy to take care of myself.

[00:28:53] John Cordray: I. Yep. That's so important for everybody. I think that we find something that [00:29:00] we enjoy to ground ourselves, cuz like you said, we're, we're human beings and so often we spend a lot of our time doing instead of being and self-care kind of makes us kinda slow down so we can practice being a human being.

[00:29:15] John Cordray: And that's great. That's awesome. So thank you. Thank you for sharing. And again, thank you for sharing your expertise and your encouragement for couples who are listening to this. If you're listening to this that you're thinking, well, you know what? I think we should give counseling a try. And I would encourage you to find a therapist, either virtual like Elizabeth is, or maybe you would rather see someone in the office, and that's fine too.

[00:29:45] John Cordray: Just look and see what you can find. They're, they're out. And take a look and try it out. That's, that'd be great. Well, I wanna thank you all for listening. I appreciate you and I just wanna encourage you to visit the [00:30:00] website at mental health today show.com. Again, that's Mental health today show.com.

[00:30:06] John Cordray: You can listen to all of the different episodes. I've been doing this for a very long time, so there's quite a few episodes on there, right there for you, as well as a few blogs for you to. Well, I wanna encourage you to continue to work on your mental health and remember, the Mental Health Today Show has been championing your mental health since 2015.

[00:30:29] John Cordray: Take care of my friends. Okay.