What Makes A Good Therapist Great With Jonathan Le

1 00:00:00,066 --> 00:00:05,338 One of the questions I get often, and that is what makes a good therapist. 2 00:00:05,872 --> 00:00:08,908 Because there are therapists who are good 3 00:00:09,409 --> 00:00:12,145 and there are some therapists who are really good. 4 00:00:12,145 --> 00:00:13,413 They're great. 5 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:17,150 And I get a question a lot of is every therapist 6 00:00:17,150 --> 00:00:19,919 the same or did I get a bad one? 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,255 Or I have a great one. 8 00:00:22,255 --> 00:00:24,324 What do you mean you don't You don't like your therapist? 9 00:00:24,524 --> 00:00:28,328 And so I'm really interested in this and it's a great topic. 10 00:00:28,328 --> 00:00:33,700 And the title of this episode is What Makes a Good Therapist Great. 11 00:00:34,167 --> 00:00:38,271 And my guest is Jon Lee, and Jon is a licensed counselor. 12 00:00:38,271 --> 00:00:43,243 And we're going to be talking about what is it that makes a good therapist? 13 00:00:43,243 --> 00:00:44,010 Great. 14 00:00:44,010 --> 00:00:47,013 And this is going to be really good for those of you who are therapists 15 00:00:47,647 --> 00:00:50,316 to hone your skills and be thinking through. 16 00:00:50,550 --> 00:00:54,521 What are some things that I can do to even be even better than what I am now? 17 00:00:54,888 --> 00:00:57,991 Or you might be someone who is looking for a therapist 18 00:00:57,991 --> 00:01:01,261 and you're trying to figure out, how do I find the right therapist for me? 19 00:01:01,728 --> 00:01:05,165 Well, this episode is going to be for you as well, so it's going to be a great one. 20 00:01:05,498 --> 00:01:06,666 And so we're going to be talking about 21 00:01:06,666 --> 00:01:10,470 what makes a good therapist great with Jon Lee coming right up. 22 00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:16,476 Oh. Don't worry about today or things we cannot change. 23 00:01:16,743 --> 00:01:19,379 It's over the past weekend. 24 00:01:19,913 --> 00:01:21,448 Welcome to the Mental Health Today's show. 25 00:01:21,448 --> 00:01:22,916 My name is John Cordray 26 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:26,686 and I am a licensed therapist and I am also the host of the show. 27 00:01:26,686 --> 00:01:28,788 And I am so happy that you're here. 28 00:01:28,788 --> 00:01:31,958 Cannot wait to talk about this topic. 29 00:01:32,192 --> 00:01:35,695 It's one question that I get often and one 30 00:01:35,762 --> 00:01:38,131 I think it's going to be really helpful for you. 31 00:01:38,231 --> 00:01:42,035 And so let me just kind of let you know who the guest is going to be. 32 00:01:42,368 --> 00:01:45,805 Jonathan Lee is a licensed clinical professional counselor. 33 00:01:46,072 --> 00:01:50,009 He's also the founder of Anchor Point Professional Counseling, 34 00:01:50,276 --> 00:01:53,680 which is a mental health private practice located in Maryland. 35 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:59,085 As a Cambodian first generation college graduate and business owner, 36 00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:03,189 Jonathan is passionate about bringing mental health awareness 37 00:02:03,189 --> 00:02:05,091 to minority communities. 38 00:02:05,091 --> 00:02:08,995 Love that Jonathan hosted Mental Health Workshop continuing 39 00:02:08,995 --> 00:02:13,566 education courses to educate business professionals, local churches 40 00:02:13,566 --> 00:02:18,638 and members of the Asian community about depression and anxiety. 41 00:02:18,972 --> 00:02:20,974 Jon, welcome to the show. 42 00:02:21,307 --> 00:02:22,509 Thanks for having. Me. 43 00:02:22,509 --> 00:02:24,577 Oh, it's great to have you. 44 00:02:24,577 --> 00:02:27,580 I'm trying to think you might be the first guest 45 00:02:27,580 --> 00:02:31,351 that has the same name as I do. 46 00:02:31,751 --> 00:02:33,052 That's good to know. 47 00:02:33,119 --> 00:02:35,688 Yeah, that's great. Yeah. No pressure. 48 00:02:35,855 --> 00:02:37,557 No, it's kind of like talking to myself. 49 00:02:37,557 --> 00:02:39,759 Jon, welcome to the show, though. 50 00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:41,694 Anyway, great to have you. 51 00:02:41,694 --> 00:02:46,299 And it's just really looking forward to learning more about 52 00:02:46,399 --> 00:02:48,301 what makes a good therapist great. 53 00:02:48,301 --> 00:02:51,337 But before we get to that, I want to know a little bit about you. 54 00:02:51,771 --> 00:02:54,440 Really seems like an interesting background. 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,076 And tell us a little story about you could be 56 00:02:57,510 --> 00:03:00,813 just being the first generation college graduate and business owner. 57 00:03:00,813 --> 00:03:04,184 It could be about when you decided to become a therapist. 58 00:03:04,384 --> 00:03:06,753 Could be both of those. So tell us a little bit about you. 59 00:03:07,153 --> 00:03:07,921 Yeah, definitely. 60 00:03:07,921 --> 00:03:13,059 So I am Cambodian, partly because my mom migrated here from Cambodia. 61 00:03:13,493 --> 00:03:17,096 She was actually a survivor of the Khmer Rouge or the Cambodian 62 00:03:17,096 --> 00:03:18,264 genocide in the nineties, 63 00:03:19,465 --> 00:03:20,667 and she had 64 00:03:20,667 --> 00:03:24,370 gone through a great deal of trauma before migrating here. 65 00:03:24,404 --> 00:03:27,907 She witnessed the pretty much homicide 66 00:03:28,308 --> 00:03:31,411 of the entire side of her family. 67 00:03:31,844 --> 00:03:34,914 The only ones who were able to successfully flee here were her 68 00:03:34,914 --> 00:03:38,051 and her siblings by boat after the genocide ended. 69 00:03:38,418 --> 00:03:42,422 So she I have a great deal of respect for all of the things 70 00:03:42,422 --> 00:03:43,890 that she's gone through. 71 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:45,692 She's no longer with us today. 72 00:03:45,692 --> 00:03:49,929 She actually passed away from Alzheimer's almost a decade ago, 73 00:03:49,929 --> 00:03:53,333 but it's because of her and the sacrifice that she made that I, 74 00:03:53,366 --> 00:03:58,171 both myself and my sister, even have the opportunities that we do have. 75 00:03:58,471 --> 00:04:03,142 So growing up, as a Cambodian American, one of the biggest things 76 00:04:03,142 --> 00:04:07,046 that my mother instilled in us was a strong sense of work ethic 77 00:04:07,447 --> 00:04:10,984 because we we had a working class background 78 00:04:10,984 --> 00:04:13,686 and my mother was the breadwinner in our family. 79 00:04:14,187 --> 00:04:17,490 We we had to work really hard for every opportunity we got 80 00:04:17,857 --> 00:04:19,192 and receive growing up. 81 00:04:19,192 --> 00:04:24,163 Mental health is one of the things that I encountered a lot of in terms 82 00:04:24,163 --> 00:04:28,434 of dysfunction and disorders that I experienced growing up. 83 00:04:28,434 --> 00:04:29,836 Even in my family dynamic. 84 00:04:29,836 --> 00:04:33,439 Of course, because of my mom's background, she had PTSD, 85 00:04:33,973 --> 00:04:35,975 she had depression, she had a variety of things 86 00:04:35,975 --> 00:04:42,215 that were unresolved from being a victim and a survivor of a mass genocide. 87 00:04:42,749 --> 00:04:47,253 So growing up, I encountered and I experienced a lot of challenges 88 00:04:47,253 --> 00:04:48,488 in my family dynamic 89 00:04:48,488 --> 00:04:52,659 as a result of unresolved mental health issues that were not dealt with. 90 00:04:53,259 --> 00:04:57,797 And for me specifically, I developed a passion 91 00:04:57,797 --> 00:05:00,366 for diving into the mental health field that a really young age. 92 00:05:00,633 --> 00:05:03,569 It's actually funny because in middle school we had these 93 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:06,572 these little assessments that we took 94 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:09,942 to determine what our career path would be when we grew up. 95 00:05:09,942 --> 00:05:14,414 And the number one thing that popped up for me was a psychologist slash therapist. 96 00:05:14,814 --> 00:05:18,751 And it just made sense because I was always the go to person for friends 97 00:05:18,751 --> 00:05:22,188 whenever they wanted to talk about things, whenever they needed emotional support. 98 00:05:22,722 --> 00:05:28,194 I was always the one that was sought after for advice or for any type of insight. 99 00:05:28,261 --> 00:05:30,229 Whenever people wanted to talk about things. 100 00:05:30,229 --> 00:05:35,034 So early on, I knew that I wanted to dive into the helping 101 00:05:35,034 --> 00:05:39,672 Profession field, and I actually ended up skipping several grades. 102 00:05:39,706 --> 00:05:41,741 I graduated high school early. 103 00:05:41,741 --> 00:05:45,111 I graduated college and in two years instead of four. 104 00:05:45,712 --> 00:05:47,914 Partly because I already knew at a young age 105 00:05:47,914 --> 00:05:50,516 that this is exactly what I wanted to do when I grow up. 106 00:05:51,517 --> 00:05:55,888 And opportunities fell in my lap and I was very fortunate 107 00:05:55,888 --> 00:05:59,258 to be able to take advantage of some really awesome ones. 108 00:05:59,292 --> 00:06:02,895 Honestly, my first job official, like W2 job, 109 00:06:02,895 --> 00:06:07,533 was I was a student assistant at the University of Maryland's 110 00:06:07,533 --> 00:06:09,168 Counseling Center. 111 00:06:09,168 --> 00:06:13,773 Long story short, I helped the lady carry boxes to her house 112 00:06:13,773 --> 00:06:14,640 and she just happened to be 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,744 the director of University of Maryland's Counseling Center. 114 00:06:17,744 --> 00:06:20,380 And we were just striking up a conversation 115 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:22,348 and she asked me what I want to do when I grow up. 116 00:06:22,348 --> 00:06:25,251 And I just told her hair, I really want to go into counseling. 117 00:06:25,251 --> 00:06:29,822 And she connected me right away and I was able to be a student 118 00:06:29,822 --> 00:06:32,725 assistant as a 16 year old in high school. 119 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:38,131 And I had the opportunity to shadow counselors and and sit in on sessions. 120 00:06:38,131 --> 00:06:43,803 And that exposure, even as a 16 year old, was so incredibly impactful for me 121 00:06:43,803 --> 00:06:49,108 because I it solidified my career pursuit and it really helped me 122 00:06:49,509 --> 00:06:52,145 develop that confidence that I needed to know, yeah, 123 00:06:52,145 --> 00:06:53,780 this is what I want to go into college for 124 00:06:53,780 --> 00:06:56,282 and this is what I need to do for the rest of my life. 125 00:06:57,083 --> 00:07:01,020 And from that point on, I just took advantage of more and more opportunities. 126 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:03,055 I started off as a 127 00:07:03,055 --> 00:07:06,959 as a crisis intervention person working at a crisis center. 128 00:07:07,427 --> 00:07:10,963 I ended up supervising there for several years before diving into grad 129 00:07:10,963 --> 00:07:15,968 school, and opportunity after opportunity just presented itself year after year 130 00:07:16,335 --> 00:07:19,972 until about three years ago, when I decided to start my own private 131 00:07:19,972 --> 00:07:23,242 practice in the Montgomery County, Maryland area 132 00:07:23,309 --> 00:07:25,945 where I am now. 133 00:07:26,245 --> 00:07:30,082 Well, okay, so what really strikes me 134 00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:33,186 when you were talking about your 135 00:07:33,419 --> 00:07:36,122 like how you got involved and becoming a counselor, 136 00:07:36,656 --> 00:07:40,827 you were 16 years old and you knew what you wanted to do. 137 00:07:41,727 --> 00:07:41,961 Mm hmm. 138 00:07:42,161 --> 00:07:46,632 That is so very rare, I would say is very rare 139 00:07:46,632 --> 00:07:50,403 for a teenager to say, I want to become a therapist. 140 00:07:50,536 --> 00:07:54,740 I'm guessing that pretty rare in for you, though. 141 00:07:54,740 --> 00:07:58,611 You knew that's what you wanted to do, I would imagine, 142 00:07:58,611 --> 00:08:01,214 in large part because of what your mom went through. 143 00:08:02,048 --> 00:08:05,318 Yes. Yeah, Because your mom had PTSD. 144 00:08:05,585 --> 00:08:06,853 Rightly so. 145 00:08:06,853 --> 00:08:09,288 She went through horrific trauma 146 00:08:09,856 --> 00:08:14,427 and she was raising you and your sister and you grew up with her 147 00:08:15,127 --> 00:08:17,196 just seeing her resilience. 148 00:08:17,630 --> 00:08:22,201 And also, I'm sure there were some times it was very difficult. 149 00:08:22,735 --> 00:08:27,507 And just that living with that and seeing that, 150 00:08:28,241 --> 00:08:32,645 that would really it makes sense to me that at a very young age 151 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:36,215 you wanted to become a therapist because you wanted to help people 152 00:08:36,549 --> 00:08:39,085 that are struggling like your mom was. Yeah. 153 00:08:39,218 --> 00:08:43,623 And the other big thing was I really wanted to empower 154 00:08:43,623 --> 00:08:46,893 other people that came from disadvantaged backgrounds 155 00:08:47,193 --> 00:08:50,763 because I myself had a lot of disadvantages. 156 00:08:50,763 --> 00:08:55,201 And I grew up in an environment where a lot of people around me 157 00:08:55,501 --> 00:08:59,805 had certain socioeconomic, family status 158 00:08:59,805 --> 00:09:02,542 and a variety of other significant 159 00:09:02,808 --> 00:09:05,778 privileges and advantages in life. 160 00:09:05,778 --> 00:09:11,217 And I remember experiencing a lot of insecurity and a lot of inferiority 161 00:09:11,217 --> 00:09:15,421 growing up, to be quite honest, because of my unique background. 162 00:09:15,555 --> 00:09:19,859 And so one thing that really appealed to me about the mental health field 163 00:09:19,859 --> 00:09:25,498 was the opportunity and the privilege to empower people that felt disempowered 164 00:09:25,932 --> 00:09:28,834 and to be able to give them the resources that they need in order 165 00:09:28,834 --> 00:09:34,106 to change their perspective on life and to maximize their potential 166 00:09:34,106 --> 00:09:37,009 for success and being the best version of themselves 167 00:09:37,009 --> 00:09:40,279 that they could be despite whatever background they came from. 168 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:42,715 Wow. I love that. 169 00:09:42,715 --> 00:09:45,685 I love it because not only you grew up in a 170 00:09:45,685 --> 00:09:49,322 in a home where your mom was, went through a lot of trauma. 171 00:09:49,322 --> 00:09:51,057 So you got to see that. 172 00:09:51,057 --> 00:09:54,427 But also, you developed it as a heart 173 00:09:54,427 --> 00:09:57,563 and love for those in the minority communities. 174 00:09:57,563 --> 00:10:01,467 And you saw that you wanted to bring the mental health 175 00:10:01,467 --> 00:10:05,671 awareness to to those disadvantaged and minority groups. 176 00:10:05,671 --> 00:10:10,576 And I think that's amazing that that's what you wanted to do at a young age. 177 00:10:10,576 --> 00:10:14,480 And you sometimes it's luck and sometimes it's it just 178 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,718 great openings and it's this destiny that you meet certain people. 179 00:10:18,718 --> 00:10:22,922 And I would say when you met that director of the College Counseling center, 180 00:10:22,922 --> 00:10:28,227 it was partly luck maybe, but also partly your destiny to do that. 181 00:10:28,327 --> 00:10:32,131 And you said that you got to sit in to watch 182 00:10:32,632 --> 00:10:35,034 and learn from other therapists, is that right? 183 00:10:35,368 --> 00:10:35,901 Yeah. 184 00:10:36,035 --> 00:10:36,435 Mm hmm. 185 00:10:36,602 --> 00:10:39,705 So you've learned a lot by watching. Yeah. 186 00:10:39,805 --> 00:10:44,043 And so the topic of this episode is what makes a good therapist. 187 00:10:44,043 --> 00:10:44,910 Great. 188 00:10:44,977 --> 00:10:47,747 You kind of knew that you were learning that even 189 00:10:47,747 --> 00:10:49,982 before you became a therapist yourself. 190 00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:52,251 So first, I want to. 191 00:10:52,551 --> 00:10:56,522 I want you to bring out a little bit more about your mission. 192 00:10:56,522 --> 00:11:00,893 It sounds like a mission that you have of wanting to bring out the mental health 193 00:11:00,893 --> 00:11:03,963 awareness to minority communities and what that looks like. 194 00:11:04,530 --> 00:11:07,066 And then I want to come back and I want to talk more 195 00:11:07,066 --> 00:11:09,635 about what you believe makes a good therapist. 196 00:11:09,635 --> 00:11:10,302 Great. 197 00:11:10,603 --> 00:11:13,205 So let's start with the mental health awareness 198 00:11:13,205 --> 00:11:17,243 to minority communities and tell us a little bit about what 199 00:11:17,309 --> 00:11:21,781 what you're doing and some of your ideas that you're working towards on that. 200 00:11:22,214 --> 00:11:22,548 Yeah. 201 00:11:22,548 --> 00:11:27,053 So one of the things that I'm passionate about is raising awareness 202 00:11:27,053 --> 00:11:30,923 of mental health, especially among the Asian-American community. 203 00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:34,160 So one of the things that I do for me personally, 204 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,830 I have a background as a Christian, so I'm connected with different churches, 205 00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:41,901 but also I reach out to different churches, especially Asian American ones, 206 00:11:41,901 --> 00:11:45,504 whether it's Korean-American, Vietnamese, American, Chinese, American, 207 00:11:46,105 --> 00:11:48,507 just to kind of open up 208 00:11:48,507 --> 00:11:49,175 a window 209 00:11:49,175 --> 00:11:54,280 and an opportunity to create workshops, open ended discussions, group dynamics 210 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:59,452 where we can discuss symptoms of both depression and anxiety, given 211 00:11:59,452 --> 00:12:04,757 that those are the two most common ones, but also given that in the Asian community 212 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:09,395 there is a deep prioritization and lack of education 213 00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:12,264 and awareness of mental health, specifically. 214 00:12:12,531 --> 00:12:16,936 I think for me specifically, having been surrounded by so many Asian Americans 215 00:12:16,936 --> 00:12:22,675 growing up, I observed a lot of mental health symptoms happening all around me. 216 00:12:22,975 --> 00:12:24,310 There were a lot of people 217 00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:28,514 that were suicidal that were struggling with what we would classify as therapists, 218 00:12:28,514 --> 00:12:32,351 as generalized anxiety disorder, people that were having a lot of physiologic 219 00:12:33,352 --> 00:12:36,188 symptoms and response to mental health challenges 220 00:12:36,188 --> 00:12:39,325 that they were going through that simply didn't have the tools 221 00:12:39,325 --> 00:12:42,795 or resources to understand how to cope with those things. 222 00:12:42,928 --> 00:12:46,365 So as a clinician, this is one thing that I talk about 223 00:12:46,365 --> 00:12:50,469 all the time and pretty much every teaching opportunity I have. 224 00:12:50,569 --> 00:12:53,506 But I talk a lot about the bias, psychosocial model 225 00:12:53,873 --> 00:12:57,443 of self-care and health and mental health specifically. 226 00:12:57,810 --> 00:13:01,881 So when I'm breaking down with different churches or businesses 227 00:13:01,881 --> 00:13:05,618 or Asian-American groups about what depression is about 228 00:13:05,618 --> 00:13:09,622 weddings, ideas, I'm looking at it from a holistic health perspective. 229 00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:14,260 So I educate any community that I encounter or interact with 230 00:13:14,627 --> 00:13:19,098 about what the biological, the psychological, the social and the 231 00:13:19,098 --> 00:13:24,103 spiritual symptoms and implications of whatever depression looks like. 232 00:13:24,103 --> 00:13:29,108 Anxiety looks like PTSD, substance use, whatever mental health topic I'm 233 00:13:29,108 --> 00:13:33,279 speaking about in that particular event or workshop I'm expounding on, 234 00:13:33,646 --> 00:13:36,415 what does it look like from each of those four areas 235 00:13:36,415 --> 00:13:39,552 of health and functioning to observe and witness 236 00:13:39,552 --> 00:13:43,823 someone going through depression, anxiety and a variety of other things. 237 00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:44,723 That way 238 00:13:44,723 --> 00:13:48,794 I can break things down with people in a more logistical, practical manner. 239 00:13:49,061 --> 00:13:53,499 And I also utilize a lot of diagrams, visual diagrams to help people capture 240 00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:57,303 and understand what it looks like to experience one 241 00:13:57,303 --> 00:14:01,407 particular type of mental health issue from a holistic health 242 00:14:01,607 --> 00:14:05,578 and physiological standpoint, if that makes sense. 243 00:14:06,812 --> 00:14:09,081 Well, I must say it does definitely make sense. 244 00:14:09,615 --> 00:14:12,151 I mean, I love the fact that you use visuals 245 00:14:12,384 --> 00:14:15,454 because I think that is a really good way of explaining. 246 00:14:15,454 --> 00:14:20,359 Sometimes it can be complicated concepts, but to see a visual representation of it 247 00:14:20,359 --> 00:14:21,794 can be very helpful 248 00:14:21,794 --> 00:14:25,197 with, you know, just trying to figure out what it is that you're trying to explain. 249 00:14:25,631 --> 00:14:26,899 So that's really cool. 250 00:14:26,899 --> 00:14:31,203 And then you specifically target the different communities 251 00:14:31,203 --> 00:14:36,075 by going to churches because that's something that you value a lot. 252 00:14:36,075 --> 00:14:39,178 And so that makes sense that you go there because that's where 253 00:14:39,178 --> 00:14:43,349 a lot of the people in the community, Asian community especially gather. 254 00:14:43,349 --> 00:14:47,086 And so that's a great resource where you can go to them instead of them 255 00:14:47,086 --> 00:14:48,420 coming to you. 256 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:50,422 So that's that's great. Thank you for doing that. 257 00:14:50,422 --> 00:14:52,791 That's that's very helpful to know. 258 00:14:53,092 --> 00:14:57,396 And so what I will like to do now is to talk a little bit more 259 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,099 about going back to what makes a good therapist 260 00:15:00,099 --> 00:15:03,535 great kind of the topic, the main topic of our episode 261 00:15:03,769 --> 00:15:07,072 and going way back when you were younger and witnessing 262 00:15:07,072 --> 00:15:10,976 and watching other therapists, what are some things that you would say? 263 00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:14,213 One, what are some things that you would say is a good therapist 264 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:17,082 and some things that a good therapist would do, and maybe 265 00:15:17,349 --> 00:15:20,519 some things that a potential client is looking for. 266 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:22,721 A therapist What are some things to look for? 267 00:15:22,721 --> 00:15:26,625 But then what then would you say makes a great therapist? 268 00:15:27,126 --> 00:15:29,061 Yeah, great question. 269 00:15:29,061 --> 00:15:31,730 So good therapists, from what I observe, 270 00:15:31,964 --> 00:15:36,702 have the basic clinical skills that were taught in graduate school. 271 00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:37,136 Right? 272 00:15:37,136 --> 00:15:42,341 So they they have those basic active listening, reflective listening 273 00:15:42,675 --> 00:15:47,212 resources readily available for targeting any type of mental health issue 274 00:15:47,313 --> 00:15:49,915 that clients are going through or whether it's anxiety, depression, 275 00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:53,953 having different I don't want to necessarily say worksheets, but 276 00:15:54,286 --> 00:15:59,191 different strategies, interventions, techniques readily available and at hand, 277 00:15:59,925 --> 00:16:03,128 but specifically when it comes to great therapy. 278 00:16:03,595 --> 00:16:07,232 One thing that unfortunately I noticed time and time again, 279 00:16:07,232 --> 00:16:10,669 especially when I'm doing intakes and meeting clients for the first time 280 00:16:10,669 --> 00:16:16,642 consultations, one thing that doesn't come up as often as I'd hope when people 281 00:16:16,642 --> 00:16:20,279 talk about previous therapists they've had is having 282 00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:23,115 a full sensory experience. 283 00:16:23,382 --> 00:16:24,216 And what I mean by 284 00:16:24,216 --> 00:16:28,287 that is this is something we all know as therapists, but at the end of the day, 285 00:16:28,287 --> 00:16:33,993 therapy is intended to be goal oriented and there have to be top prioritization 286 00:16:34,226 --> 00:16:38,397 that clients are expecting out of the experience. 287 00:16:38,864 --> 00:16:41,700 So with a lot of incoming clients, 288 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:45,738 with a lot of consultations I've done with new clients in the past, 289 00:16:46,171 --> 00:16:49,742 people will reflect on previous therapy experiences 290 00:16:49,742 --> 00:16:55,681 they've had and very often tell me that there wasn't really a sense of direction 291 00:16:55,914 --> 00:16:58,450 or there wasn't there weren't really goals 292 00:16:58,917 --> 00:17:01,320 that the client was working on. 293 00:17:01,954 --> 00:17:04,390 And I think that at the very start of therapy, 294 00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:09,061 it's extremely important to have goals and to have a sense of direction. 295 00:17:09,094 --> 00:17:10,262 First and foremost. 296 00:17:11,263 --> 00:17:12,498 I think the other thing 297 00:17:12,498 --> 00:17:16,769 when it comes to great therapy is being able 298 00:17:16,769 --> 00:17:21,140 to integrate a multi-sensory approach to the therapy experience. 299 00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:26,311 And what I mean by that is very often I'll hear from new clients 300 00:17:26,311 --> 00:17:30,783 who are transferring from other counselors that all they did 301 00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:34,987 was maybe talk it out for a little bit and perhaps 302 00:17:34,987 --> 00:17:37,689 the entire hour for many hours 303 00:17:38,190 --> 00:17:41,693 back to back weeks on end was just the client venting. 304 00:17:42,161 --> 00:17:43,962 And there wasn't a sense of resolution. 305 00:17:43,962 --> 00:17:48,267 There wasn't really much going on with the with the interaction 306 00:17:48,267 --> 00:17:51,670 or that dynamic, the counselor client relationship dynamic, as we call it. 307 00:17:51,670 --> 00:17:54,840 And it's disheartening to hear feedback like that. 308 00:17:55,074 --> 00:17:58,277 When I hear clients talk about previous therapy experiences, partly 309 00:17:58,277 --> 00:18:00,913 because there's so much more 310 00:18:01,447 --> 00:18:04,616 to the counseling experience than just the client venting. 311 00:18:04,683 --> 00:18:05,384 Great. 312 00:18:05,884 --> 00:18:09,154 For myself as a therapist, I love to integrate a multi-sensory 313 00:18:09,154 --> 00:18:12,157 approach, meaning that I try my best to integrate 314 00:18:12,491 --> 00:18:16,562 as many of the five senses as I can in session with people. 315 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:20,466 One thing I talk about time and time again is the idea of mindfulness. 316 00:18:20,466 --> 00:18:22,634 But when I'm talking about mindfulness 317 00:18:22,634 --> 00:18:26,672 with clients, I don't just talk about it in a psychoeducation 318 00:18:26,672 --> 00:18:30,209 teaching type of dynamic, we actually practice it in session, right? 319 00:18:30,976 --> 00:18:33,345 So one thing I've talked a lot about with people in the past is 320 00:18:34,146 --> 00:18:37,282 how can you integrate mindfulness in your day to day life? 321 00:18:37,282 --> 00:18:41,720 And sometimes we use therapy sessions to model that type of dynamic. 322 00:18:42,054 --> 00:18:46,258 So what I'll do is I'll gather a Five Senses charts 323 00:18:46,592 --> 00:18:50,896 and I will invite the client to bring in their favorite type of food, 324 00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:54,833 whether it's sushi or a burger or any type of dish from home. 325 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,636 And we'll practice mindful eating in session. 326 00:18:58,170 --> 00:19:03,175 I'll have the client slowly chew on and savor the flavors of whatever 327 00:19:03,175 --> 00:19:04,643 they're consuming, 328 00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:06,979 and they will literally record and write down 329 00:19:07,379 --> 00:19:10,916 all of the five senses, five sensory 330 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:14,753 experiences that they're experiencing in that particular moment. 331 00:19:14,753 --> 00:19:18,090 See, hear, touch, taste, feel when it comes to the food. 332 00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:24,129 And that way we're using our therapy session to kind of model and experiment 333 00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:28,534 on ways that that client can be mindful of other experiences in life, 334 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,037 whether it's being present in conversations with their peers 335 00:19:32,037 --> 00:19:35,741 or exercising or being attentive 336 00:19:35,741 --> 00:19:39,311 at work, or a variety of other areas where mindfulness can be helpful. 337 00:19:39,845 --> 00:19:44,383 So I bring up the multisensory approach, partly because I think that part of 338 00:19:44,383 --> 00:19:49,288 what makes a great therapist great is practicing in session 339 00:19:49,321 --> 00:19:54,359 some of the things that you're teaching your clients, but also at the same time 340 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,262 teaching your clients in a way that is multi-sensory 341 00:19:57,396 --> 00:20:02,935 so that the client can actually retain the information in a memorable way 342 00:20:03,101 --> 00:20:07,773 and look back on an experience in a previous session and go, Wow. 343 00:20:07,773 --> 00:20:11,944 I remember when hypothetically I was doing Mindful Eating with John 344 00:20:12,044 --> 00:20:15,781 and these are the things I learned about mindfulness and let me start 345 00:20:15,781 --> 00:20:17,382 practicing that right now. 346 00:20:17,382 --> 00:20:21,920 So different experiences that we invite clients into that 347 00:20:22,387 --> 00:20:25,123 are memorable for them, partly because we engaged 348 00:20:25,123 --> 00:20:29,461 in a multi-sensory approach and from there they can look back on that and actually 349 00:20:29,761 --> 00:20:33,265 retain the content and the information that we were teaching them 350 00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:37,469 by not just talking but actually doing things in session. 351 00:20:38,337 --> 00:20:39,571 Well, I really love that. 352 00:20:39,571 --> 00:20:43,175 I love the fact that you invite your clients 353 00:20:43,175 --> 00:20:47,212 to bring in food and using that for a mindfulness practice. 354 00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:52,784 What a what a wonderful experience, because food is something that we 355 00:20:52,985 --> 00:20:57,122 that we normally we associate with is very social 356 00:20:57,923 --> 00:21:00,759 and it's obviously something that we have to have in 357 00:21:01,126 --> 00:21:03,829 You're bringing that in and you're incorporating, 358 00:21:03,829 --> 00:21:09,601 which is what I love, what you're teaching into the experience in your session, 359 00:21:09,935 --> 00:21:13,205 something that people do commonly every single day. 360 00:21:13,905 --> 00:21:17,676 So if I was a client, would it be okay if I were to bring in a chocolate 361 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:18,810 chip cookie? 362 00:21:18,977 --> 00:21:19,745 Oh, yeah. 363 00:21:19,745 --> 00:21:21,780 Oh, sign me up. 364 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:23,615 All right. That's awesome. 365 00:21:23,615 --> 00:21:25,183 I love it now. 366 00:21:25,183 --> 00:21:29,254 But seriously, the fact that that you're teaching your 367 00:21:29,521 --> 00:21:34,593 your clients and you have a goal sounds very intentional. 368 00:21:34,593 --> 00:21:36,728 And so all of those are great. 369 00:21:37,095 --> 00:21:40,465 And I'm thinking of someone who might be listening to this, 370 00:21:40,465 --> 00:21:44,169 and maybe they're calling around and trying to find a therapist. 371 00:21:44,403 --> 00:21:48,273 What would you say would be some good questions that because a lot of times 372 00:21:48,273 --> 00:21:52,244 I'll tell people not every therapist is going to be a good fit for you. 373 00:21:52,811 --> 00:21:54,980 So how do you find one that is a good fit? 374 00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:58,216 And I tell people, we'll ask some questions, develop 375 00:21:58,216 --> 00:22:00,018 some questions ahead of time. 376 00:22:00,018 --> 00:22:04,022 And when you talk to a therapist before you go in and make the appointment, 377 00:22:04,022 --> 00:22:08,260 talk to them and ask them some questions, almost like an interview in a way. 378 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,530 What would be some questions that that you think would be good 379 00:22:11,530 --> 00:22:16,335 for someone to ask if they were to call and talk to a therapist in 380 00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:18,804 maybe just a few questions that would help them 381 00:22:18,804 --> 00:22:22,774 get a better understanding if they would be a good fit or not? 382 00:22:22,774 --> 00:22:23,575 Yeah. 383 00:22:23,742 --> 00:22:27,512 One of the things that I love to challenge people, 384 00:22:27,546 --> 00:22:31,049 even friends that are friends of mine, that are looking for therapists 385 00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:33,285 around them because I can offer therapy to them. 386 00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:36,088 So I always have to tell them what kind of questions to ask. 387 00:22:36,421 --> 00:22:40,992 One thing that I love encouraging people to ask a prospective 388 00:22:40,992 --> 00:22:45,397 therapist is how do you engage in therapy? 389 00:22:45,764 --> 00:22:50,268 And by that I mean is it just a talk therapy experience? 390 00:22:50,268 --> 00:22:54,439 What types of activities, what types of interventions can I expect? 391 00:22:54,573 --> 00:22:59,010 Because generally when you have a consultation 392 00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:04,049 or a initial session with a potential counselor 393 00:23:04,049 --> 00:23:07,152 as a prospective client, the first thing you're going to do 394 00:23:07,152 --> 00:23:10,088 is talk about the problem areas that you want to work on. 395 00:23:10,355 --> 00:23:12,991 Essentially, that's pretty much almost every dynamic. 396 00:23:13,825 --> 00:23:16,361 But I always love to challenge people 397 00:23:16,361 --> 00:23:19,831 who are looking for a counselor to ask that question of what 398 00:23:20,031 --> 00:23:23,735 what types of interventions are you typically offering your clients? 399 00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:27,005 What do you typically do during the therapy process? 400 00:23:27,005 --> 00:23:28,874 What will this look like? 401 00:23:28,874 --> 00:23:31,443 Will this be a talk therapy experience? 402 00:23:31,443 --> 00:23:36,681 And what type of therapeutic modality are you operating out of? 403 00:23:37,149 --> 00:23:40,152 How will you help me 404 00:23:40,152 --> 00:23:43,288 through this process that I'm expressing to you? 405 00:23:43,522 --> 00:23:48,660 I need help with great and being able to investigate and explore the specific 406 00:23:48,994 --> 00:23:53,832 therapeutic kind of orientation that the counselor is coming from 407 00:23:54,232 --> 00:23:58,737 and what they have to offer in terms of like being able to understand 408 00:23:59,171 --> 00:24:02,641 what the experience is like and then sharing that with you upfront 409 00:24:03,241 --> 00:24:06,678 is typically helpful because you can kind of gauge from there. 410 00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:09,781 Like maybe I don't necessarily want to 411 00:24:10,248 --> 00:24:15,053 just do this type of intervention, whether it's like, Oh, this person 412 00:24:15,387 --> 00:24:20,892 specializes in CBT and their perspective is just changing my perspective on things. 413 00:24:20,892 --> 00:24:24,796 Maybe I want to do a little bit more emotionally focused therapy 414 00:24:25,030 --> 00:24:29,401 kind of stuff where I explore the past and family dynamics. 415 00:24:30,068 --> 00:24:32,838 I think it's really important to start with like the framework 416 00:24:32,838 --> 00:24:36,107 and the philosophy of the counselor and exploring that. 417 00:24:36,374 --> 00:24:37,242 I like that. 418 00:24:37,242 --> 00:24:39,277 That's a really, really good place to start 419 00:24:39,311 --> 00:24:42,681 to try to figure out if the therapist is going to be a good fit and kind of 420 00:24:42,681 --> 00:24:45,884 go there and have some of those questions ready. 421 00:24:46,585 --> 00:24:50,689 Now, getting towards the end here, I do want to talk about 422 00:24:50,689 --> 00:24:53,458 the therapist themselves, because you and I are therapists 423 00:24:54,092 --> 00:24:57,062 and we're talking about what makes a good therapist great. 424 00:24:57,362 --> 00:24:59,798 And you mentioned a lot of good ones. 425 00:24:59,798 --> 00:25:04,202 If someone is is listening to this a therapist 426 00:25:04,603 --> 00:25:07,305 and they're thinking, you know what, there are probably some things 427 00:25:07,305 --> 00:25:12,277 that I need to work on to hone on this in order to be better. 428 00:25:12,611 --> 00:25:14,746 And I always want to grow better. 429 00:25:14,746 --> 00:25:16,181 As a therapist, 430 00:25:16,181 --> 00:25:18,984 what would be some things that you could offer to a therapist 431 00:25:18,984 --> 00:25:23,021 who's listening, who wants to, wants to elevate their game, 432 00:25:23,021 --> 00:25:26,391 so to speak, and really want to hone their craft and 433 00:25:26,791 --> 00:25:29,928 help their clients when they come in and maybe when they have a client, 434 00:25:29,928 --> 00:25:32,831 call them and ask those great questions that you just mentioned. 435 00:25:32,831 --> 00:25:36,368 Will it be some things that you could tell a therapist to hone their craft? 436 00:25:36,568 --> 00:25:39,237 One thing that makes a good therapist great. 437 00:25:39,337 --> 00:25:43,141 What they do is the openness and the willingness 438 00:25:43,141 --> 00:25:46,745 to constantly learn and to grow and adapt. 439 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:51,316 And one thing that I always encourage people, even other counselors 440 00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:56,354 that I'm supervising or teaching on some level is to maximize 441 00:25:56,354 --> 00:25:59,457 your social network as a clinician. 442 00:25:59,958 --> 00:26:04,095 And so what I mean by that is this is sort of a model 443 00:26:04,095 --> 00:26:07,999 that I've been practicing for years now that's been extremely helpful for me 444 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,270 in terms of diversifying my exposure and my my team. 445 00:26:12,737 --> 00:26:16,041 But it comes from a Christian kind 446 00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:20,011 of principle and model called the Paul Barnabas Timothy model. 447 00:26:20,478 --> 00:26:24,015 And essentially what that is, is it's this idea of having 448 00:26:24,616 --> 00:26:28,253 a three tiered diverse supervision 449 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,990 exposure for yourself to keep yourself accountable. 450 00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:36,261 So Paul Timothy Barnabas, that basically suggests 451 00:26:36,261 --> 00:26:40,165 that it's important to have a Pauline group or a mentor group 452 00:26:40,365 --> 00:26:44,102 in your circle, a group of clinicians 453 00:26:44,102 --> 00:26:47,005 that are more seasoned than yourself that you can learn from. 454 00:26:47,405 --> 00:26:50,609 So I have my own supervision 455 00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:53,912 group of counselors who are semi-retired 456 00:26:54,312 --> 00:26:58,583 and they pour into me, they need me, they teach me, 457 00:26:58,583 --> 00:27:02,487 they share so much wisdom and knowledge because they are a couple of years 458 00:27:02,487 --> 00:27:04,489 away from retirement and they've been practicing 459 00:27:04,489 --> 00:27:06,124 for longer than I've been alive. 460 00:27:06,124 --> 00:27:08,326 And they have so much wisdom to offer me. 461 00:27:08,326 --> 00:27:09,394 That's my Pauline group, 462 00:27:09,394 --> 00:27:13,298 my Barnabas group, quote unquote, is my accountability group. 463 00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:17,002 So a supervision group of equally seasoned 464 00:27:17,002 --> 00:27:20,372 clinicians that are keeping me accountable to that. 465 00:27:20,372 --> 00:27:24,542 We can do case consultations with that, We can learn from each other 466 00:27:24,809 --> 00:27:27,278 and that we're on sort of like an equal ground 467 00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:30,949 so that we can keep each other accountable to the quality of service 468 00:27:30,949 --> 00:27:34,586 that we're offering while also learning from one another. 469 00:27:34,619 --> 00:27:35,086 Right. 470 00:27:35,086 --> 00:27:37,989 And then the third tier of that model is the quote unquote, 471 00:27:37,989 --> 00:27:42,427 Timothy group or the mentee group. 472 00:27:42,427 --> 00:27:47,532 So I have graduate level counseling students that I mentor 473 00:27:47,532 --> 00:27:53,872 and I supervise, and they challenge me to be a better clinician 474 00:27:53,872 --> 00:27:56,908 because I have to simplify 475 00:27:57,308 --> 00:28:00,812 how I phrase things and talk about things in a manner 476 00:28:00,812 --> 00:28:05,016 that's more consumable to a graduate student. 477 00:28:05,016 --> 00:28:07,886 When I'm talking about clinical things and I have to break 478 00:28:08,219 --> 00:28:12,424 concepts down into simpler terms and it keeps me accountable 479 00:28:12,457 --> 00:28:17,462 to what I am teaching my clients and how I'm growing as a professional. 480 00:28:17,862 --> 00:28:22,267 So having a mentor, accountability and a mentor group 481 00:28:22,667 --> 00:28:26,571 extremely, extremely helpful, especially as a 482 00:28:27,172 --> 00:28:30,942 a clinician that desires to grow and mature and develop over time. 483 00:28:31,109 --> 00:28:34,746 Because the reality is this is an ongoing lifelong journey 484 00:28:34,746 --> 00:28:36,181 that we're in as therapists. 485 00:28:36,181 --> 00:28:39,250 We're going to constantly learn things. 486 00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:44,823 We're going to constantly grow and mature and change as clinicians. 487 00:28:44,823 --> 00:28:48,593 And it's important that we have a multi-tiered system 488 00:28:48,693 --> 00:28:51,996 of other clinicians that are walking alongside of us 489 00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:57,335 every single step of the way as we are changing our approach 490 00:28:57,335 --> 00:29:01,306 to things or learning new principles, new interventions, 491 00:29:01,306 --> 00:29:06,377 new techniques that we have other people keeping us accountable to that as well. 492 00:29:06,377 --> 00:29:07,979 Well, that is fantastic. 493 00:29:07,979 --> 00:29:09,180 Absolutely fantastic, 494 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:13,017 because we cannot do this alone and we shouldn't be doing this alone. 495 00:29:13,384 --> 00:29:16,187 We need community. And you're right. 496 00:29:16,187 --> 00:29:20,625 We need people who have been in this field for a long time so we can learn from 497 00:29:21,259 --> 00:29:26,097 we need our peer group and those that were that we're helping as well 498 00:29:26,431 --> 00:29:27,398 and mentoring. 499 00:29:27,398 --> 00:29:30,735 I completely agree with that and that is awesome. 500 00:29:30,735 --> 00:29:33,738 So I'm going to let you go here really soon. 501 00:29:33,905 --> 00:29:38,643 But yeah, one more question for you and that has to do with self care. 502 00:29:38,643 --> 00:29:41,513 And one of the things I talk a lot about self care 503 00:29:41,946 --> 00:29:46,317 and I enjoy self care for myself, but I like to ask my guest, 504 00:29:46,317 --> 00:29:49,921 what are some things that you do for your self care? 505 00:29:50,655 --> 00:29:51,055 Yeah. 506 00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:53,658 Oh my goodness. There's so many things I have to throw on. That was 507 00:29:54,659 --> 00:29:55,093 one of the 508 00:29:55,093 --> 00:30:00,632 things I do regular massages for myself, so I know that stress 509 00:30:00,632 --> 00:30:04,502 or tension manifests in my shoulders and my neck. 510 00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:09,541 So I get regular full body massages on a regular basis. 511 00:30:09,541 --> 00:30:11,976 That's a big thing for me and it's something that 512 00:30:12,377 --> 00:30:14,379 I've gotten used to in the last year or two. 513 00:30:14,379 --> 00:30:17,582 But another one that's really practical and specific is 514 00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:20,618 I rank the intensity and level 515 00:30:20,785 --> 00:30:23,688 of each of my clients 516 00:30:23,688 --> 00:30:26,724 and each of the types of sessions that I have on a day to day basis. 517 00:30:27,091 --> 00:30:30,628 So as therapists, we we anticipate that 518 00:30:30,628 --> 00:30:34,032 certain types of clients or sessions might be a little bit 519 00:30:34,032 --> 00:30:37,735 more emotionally draining or challenging for us than others. 520 00:30:38,102 --> 00:30:42,574 So I rank the intensity level of just two of my sessions 521 00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:47,912 and by the end of the day, as my average is greater than a five, 522 00:30:47,946 --> 00:30:52,283 then I need to adjust and rearrange certain clients on certain days 523 00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:56,054 so that I have a light versus heavy 524 00:30:56,554 --> 00:30:58,890 emotional weight load 525 00:30:59,057 --> 00:31:01,759 for that given week at the end of the week. 526 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,263 But it's just a very practical, simple way that I manage 527 00:31:05,263 --> 00:31:09,133 my emotional resilience and my emotional health as a clinician 528 00:31:09,567 --> 00:31:13,805 so that I never get burned out because my load is 529 00:31:14,372 --> 00:31:18,176 is manageable on a day to day and a two week and a month to month basis. 530 00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:22,814 Well, I love how intentional you are with your self-care, 531 00:31:22,814 --> 00:31:26,417 with your therapy practice, with your growth. 532 00:31:26,718 --> 00:31:28,186 It's just everything that you have 533 00:31:28,186 --> 00:31:32,223 mentioned is to me it comes to mind is that you are intentional 534 00:31:32,724 --> 00:31:36,728 and that's exactly what we want to teach for our clients, isn't it? 535 00:31:36,728 --> 00:31:40,932 We want them to be intentional with growing in working on their mental health. 536 00:31:41,132 --> 00:31:42,634 And so you're modeling that. 537 00:31:42,634 --> 00:31:46,738 Well, John, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show 538 00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:51,509 and just sharing your knowledge, your compassion and your compassion 539 00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:56,080 really came out and just really delight to get to know you. 540 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,151 And I'm proud to call you a colleague. 541 00:32:00,285 --> 00:32:03,655 And from what you are doing among 542 00:32:03,655 --> 00:32:07,392 the minority communities as well and honoring your mom. 543 00:32:07,392 --> 00:32:11,429 And again, I'm very, very sorry to hear what happened with your mom 544 00:32:11,429 --> 00:32:14,399 and her passing, but you're honoring her legacy. 545 00:32:15,133 --> 00:32:16,701 And so you're welcome. 546 00:32:16,701 --> 00:32:18,836 And so thank you so much for coming on the show. 547 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:20,838 Thanks for having me. 548 00:32:20,838 --> 00:32:22,073 You're very welcome. 549 00:32:22,073 --> 00:32:24,275 And I want to thank all of you for listening. 550 00:32:24,275 --> 00:32:29,881 And so I want you to really take away from this is being intentional, 551 00:32:29,881 --> 00:32:33,918 whether you're a therapist in you're wanting to go from good to great 552 00:32:34,285 --> 00:32:39,390 or you're someone who's looking for a great therapist, be intentional. 553 00:32:39,824 --> 00:32:43,394 And I want you to be intentional with working on your mental health as well. 554 00:32:43,861 --> 00:32:47,598 And I just appreciate you all, whatever you're doing, wherever you are. 555 00:32:47,865 --> 00:32:49,300 Thanks for listening to the show. 556 00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:53,504 And remember the mental Health Today Show has been championing 557 00:32:53,671 --> 00:32:57,175 your mental health since 2015. 558 00:32:57,675 --> 00:32:59,010 Take care of my friends. 559 00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:12,724 But I.