Relationship Codependency And Enmeshment With Danielle Blessing Taylor

Relationship Codependency And Enmeshment With Danielle Blessing Taylor

[00:00:00] John Cordray: One of the reoccurring things that comes up in my practice quite often when I talk to clients and it's about relationships, and quite often it's codependency and at times it's ment. And so this is gonna be a really good topic that I'm really, really looking forward to. And I know a lot of you who listen are struggling with this very thing.

[00:00:23] John Cordray: You might be wondering, am I in a codependent relat? Or do I have an ment in my relationship? And this is gonna be really helpful for you because I'm gonna have a guest on here that's gonna be talking about Deb and she specializes in that in her practice. So I'm really excited about this episode. It's relationship codependency and Ment with Danielle.

[00:00:47] John Cordray: Blessing Taylor coming. Oh, 

[00:00:51] Danielle Blessing Taylor: don't worry about today, or things we cannot change. It's over the past. We can 

[00:00:59] John Cordray: hear it. [00:01:00] Welcome to the Mental Health Today Show. My name is John Cordray and I am a licensed therapist and the host of this show, and I am really happy that you're here and I hope that you're gonna be tuning in because chances are, you probably have heard of the word codependency or maybe even a mument before, but maybe.

[00:01:19] John Cordray: Don't know exactly what that means or what it looks like in a relationship. Well, that's what we're gonna be talking about today in this episode. My special guest today is named Daniel Blessing Taylor. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist in, she runs a a group practice in dc, Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania.

[00:01:40] John Cordray: And her team helps people with anxiety, trauma, relationships, identity pain, and you guest at Codependency and Emme. Danielle specializes in looking at the underlying and historical influences of someone's presenting concerns, helping to heal from the root up. [00:02:00] Ooh, I like that. Danielle also runs support groups for fellow licensed marriage and family therapists and group practice owners, and she teaches other therapists how to open a private or group practice as well.

[00:02:13] John Cordray: Danielle, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me, John. Oh, absolutely. And I just really can't wait to really kinda unpack what it means to have a codependent relationship or in a measurement relationship with you. But before we do that, I wanna know a little bit about you. I wanna know kind of your backstory and maybe how did you become or decide to become a, a licensed marriage and family therapist?

[00:02:42] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, that's a good question. So I, I think I originally wanted to be a teacher, cuz I've always loved kids and working with kids. And I started off babysitting when I was younger and I thought that I wanted to either be a dance teacher or a school teacher. And so I went to [00:03:00] college and when I took Psych 1 0 1, psychology 1 0 1.

[00:03:04] Danielle Blessing Taylor: You had to take that, you know, to be a teacher for the, the general education. And I just fell in love with it and I found it so fascinating trying to understand people and I was already picking apart myself, my friends, my family, my everybody in my life. And I thought it was so interesting. And then just going through, The training and through college and then grad school, you could choose kind of two tracks, the professional counseling or marriage and family therapy.

[00:03:31] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And I remember in the interview process of getting into grad school, cuz I was deciding between the two and they asked, you know, do you think. More linear or more systemically. So linear, like do you believe, you know, A just equals B or A equals B, because it's C and D and E and everything is kind of connected and, and I knew that that was how I thought about any issue.

[00:03:54] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so I really loved going down the systemic track of the marriage and family therapy because [00:04:00] I still, I use that even working with individuals and I find it so inclusive and just really well rounded and it really helps people, you know, heal from the root. Oh yeah. I, I 

[00:04:11] John Cordray: like that that saying healing from the root up.

[00:04:14] John Cordray: It is so true. And so often a lot of issues that people struggle with, it starts with a seed. It's planted and it develops and grows. And what we, what we see is it with using your analogy, the tree, but what we don't see is the roots. And I like how you, you get right to that, that vision or that, that description is very visual.

[00:04:36] John Cordray: That's really. So, okay, so going back a little bit, and you were just talking about how you got involved to be a, a licensed and marriage and family therapist. Was there a time, was there a moment that it was just like you were going back and forth trying to figure out, do I become a teacher or do I become a therapist?

[00:04:55] John Cordray: What do I do? What was it, would you say? Was there a moment [00:05:00] that was very clear to you, ah, this is what I need to. I think the 

[00:05:05] Danielle Blessing Taylor: fact that, so personally reading has never been a hobby of mine. I always like to be physically busy doing things and for some reason I really enjoyed reading the psychology books that we had to learn for school, and I would be so interested in them.

[00:05:22] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And then I, I found that I would be looking for books. You know, on my free time to, to read that had to do with psychological issues where I found myself watching shows that you dug into, you know, the person's personality and their childhood and all of that. And so I just felt like as soon as I started.

[00:05:42] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Reading those and really looking deeper at, at issues and people and getting to know people. I think it was, I think we were learning about Freud at the very beginning and just the, the different stages of development and how, you know, what you went through as a child. [00:06:00] Could be even an infancy, could be related to the present.

[00:06:04] Danielle Blessing Taylor: That just really, really struck me. And then going on from. 

[00:06:08] John Cordray: And the rest is history . So, okay, so you graduated, then you, you got your license, and I know you have a group practice now, but did you start out with a group practice? 

[00:06:21] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I didn't, no. So I started off by myself and I was working, first I started doing therapeutic support staff work where I would be in the schools with children who experienced autism and related.

[00:06:34] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And then I would be inpatient and in residential facilities with similar children. And then, And then I started wanting to get more into private practice, so then I joined a group practice, and so it was a totally different population. And then started working with the group practice as well on the developmental delays in the community, in the DC area, helping people.[00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Who have schizophrenia or some pretty severe mental illness. You know, working on creating treatment plans for their staff and how to work with them. And then still working in the group practice, seeing people for individual couples and family therapy. And I worked in a couple different group practices and then, After that, just we were moving actually across the country and I was thinking, how can I keep my clients because I wasn't gonna be able to work for this practice anymore.

[00:07:28] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so I went on my own and started ever since then, I think that was about 2015 and moved out to California, but all my clients were still based in the DC area. So I was just doing it by myself for a while and then I started to find it getting a little lonely because I started off. The group practices and the community mental health.

[00:07:48] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I forgot to mention that they were sprinkled in their two community agencies and I just really missed talking with other therapists, case conferencing and just having that support and that [00:08:00] camaraderie. So I was like, how can I create this for myself? And so I started adding therapists and yeah, we have a really great team and we're really there for each other and I'm really enjoying it.

[00:08:10] John Cordray: So is it both brick and mortar and online, or is it strictly virtual? It's strictly virtual. Wow. You know, I had a private practice for about 10 years as well in a brick and mortar. It's kind of funny now that we had to say that we had to make that distinction. Is it virtual or is it brick and mortar? But it wasn't that long ago, not that many years ago.

[00:08:33] John Cordray: Vir having a virtual practice was unheard. And now it's like it's really opened up and for us to do 

[00:08:41] Danielle Blessing Taylor: that. Yeah, it's interesting when I got into it, after doing it for the first two years, I started this support group of other therapists and. Someone had said to me, you know, why don't you start trying to teach other therapists how to do this?

[00:08:53] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Cuz everyone was kind of asking me how do I do telehealth? And then I started, you know, selling that service too, because I was like, oh, this [00:09:00] is really great. And now it's funny because nobody wants to know how to do telehealth because everybody obviously is doing it . 

[00:09:07] John Cordray: That's right. It's no longer novel.

[00:09:09] John Cordray: It's not a novelty. Yeah. It has become a necess. Definitely. And so I think it's changed a lot of people. Not only is it has it changed the providers and the therapist's point of view and, and going online, but nowadays I, I would say clients almost expect to be able to do it. Mm-hmm. online. Or at least have the option to.

[00:09:33] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah. It's so convenient. 

[00:09:34] John Cordray: Yeah, it is. And so now your group practice has expanded. You're not only in DC but Maryland and Virginia and Pennsylvania. Are you gonna continue adding more states? 

[00:09:47] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Well, we work with insurance as well, so the insurance kind of limits us to the area. So we mainly have people in DC and Maryland and.

[00:09:57] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I'm licensed in Virginia and Pennsylvania. And Florida too. So [00:10:00] if we have people in those states, but I think for right now we're probably gonna be around the DC area, but maybe at some point going across the country. Yeah, 

[00:10:08] John Cordray: yeah, yeah. That's, that's great. So your practice has opened up access to a lot of people who may not otherwise have the, the ability to get therapy.

[00:10:19] John Cordray: And so that's pretty exciting and that's one of the things that the virtual therapy has allowed. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:10:24] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, definitely. And that's why I kind of like, I know insurance can be a headache for some people, but it really helps people have access to the help that they need. 

[00:10:33] John Cordray: Absolutely. It does. And so your practice now, are you open to clients or are you.

[00:10:41] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, no, we are, every week it changes. It depends on who's, you know, phasing out of therapy or who's moving down to every other week or every month. But yeah, we always have somebody who is accepting new clients for insurance or out of pocket. So 

[00:10:55] John Cordray: yeah, as long as they're in those states Yep. That you're in.

[00:10:59] John Cordray: Yeah, that [00:11:00] makes, makes a lot of sense. And so if someone's listening and they're interested, do you have a website that you can direct people? 

[00:11:08] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, definitely. If they go to www.my mfts.com and then you can go to the contact page and you can send me a message and it comes just directly to me or give us a.

[00:11:21] John Cordray: Perfect. Perfect. And we'll put all that information in our show notes. Okay. So it make it easy for people to find. Oh, great. So I, I wanna get to the, the main topic of our episode, and that's relationship codependency and enmeshment, and those are two big words. Yeah. And I'm sure people have heard of those, but can you give us a, a quick definition of those two terms?

[00:11:47] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, and it may not be used a hundred percent accurately from what I'm saying, but the way I see it in relationship terms specifically is, you know when two people are kind of so [00:12:00] intertwined that it's hard to find your sense of self, and it's hard to find your independence, whether it be seeing your own friends or having your own thoughts or your own emotions.

[00:12:11] Danielle Blessing Taylor: You're kind of become one with the person. Then it can cause obviously in relationships, a lot of tension, a lot of conflict, frustration when the other person isn't aligning or isn't, you know, in that, that tight hole with you and they start to pull away, it can be really jarring. 

[00:12:31] John Cordray: Yeah, and, and so I see this often with my clients in a relationship.

[00:12:37] John Cordray: Boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife. A lot of times the codependency is, is a boyfriend girlfriend. Relationship and a lot of times it's that maybe one is trying to get some space when the other one doesn't want that and they feel threatened from the other person. For giving this or wanting the space, what would be something that you [00:13:00] tend to talk to clients that come to you for codependency issues?

[00:13:04] John Cordray: Yeah. 

[00:13:04] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Some of the scenarios are like what you just described, or if you know somebody is adjusting to their partner, going more into the office. And they're used to being home with the person and it's causing tension or even. Having the separation of having their own independence and their own thoughts and feelings and getting frustrated and a lot of constant conflict.

[00:13:30] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I mean, I even noticed it in my own relationships. It happens at times that you're so used to being around the person that it's. So easy to get frustrated if they are upset or if they're not, you know, in that emotion that you're having and they're not really feeling it too. But we have to remember that obviously it's healthy to have one partner kind of be the rock for the other person.

[00:13:53] Danielle Blessing Taylor: So it can be a good thing that they're not down in the trenches with you. 

[00:13:57] John Cordray: Yeah, and, and you really bring up a good [00:14:00] point with C and there was a time where we all had to stay home and we didn't like, You like being in the office and some people eventually did like it and because it created a lot of other good things, benefits.

[00:14:16] John Cordray: But when you're with your partner 24 7 all the time and then all of a sudden, oh, now we can go back to the office, at least one person in the relationship might be able to go back to the office. And then that creates a lot of, not only codependency, but there's a lot of lone. And then when the other partner comes home, I would imagine that would like the other person and go into the office, comes home and feels smothered.

[00:14:47] John Cordray: And that's kind of what a codependency is like. Is is at least one person feels smothered. So the codependency part, I know that deals a lot with attach. [00:15:00] And can you talk a little bit about what type of attachment can come from codependency? 

[00:15:07] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah. We see a lot of anxious attachments so you can become, you know, really clingy to the person and have a hard time when you're not with them.

[00:15:16] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Like separation anxiety. We see this with even relationships with parents and children. We're seeing children, you know, acting out, having to go back to school. Also with relationships, I would say like with a partner, that it, they can become your everything. Because you know, during lockdown or working from home, that when you become into that codependent cycle, it's hard to see your way out of it.

[00:15:41] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And the little things, the little arguments, and it can be exasperated and just so much focus and attention is on the other person and what they are and aren't doing. And then the problems just. Even more magnified, and then that's when we see people, you know, coming into therapy. [00:16:00] 

[00:16:00] John Cordray: Yeah. And, and it can also lead to breakups.

[00:16:03] John Cordray: Mm-hmm. have a client that I've been talking to and that, and that's kinda where what she's experiencing and her partner wants to spend all the time with her, and she needs time for herself. Mm-hmm. . And so she's trying to set a boundary. But he looks at the boundary as a threat. Mm-hmm. and feels like, well, you must not love me then because you don't want me around you all the time.

[00:16:30] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah. And you can get so used to that anxious attachment that it can almost feel like the other person is being avoidant, but they're just pulling away and. Having that separate but connected relationship, which is the healthy goal, but it could feel really distant and 

[00:16:45] John Cordray: negligent. So what would you tell somebody?

[00:16:48] John Cordray: Let's say there's one person in a relationship that is wanting to have that healthy set, the healthy boundaries, but the other one's not really wanting that or they feel threatened by the the boundary. [00:17:00] What would be something that you would could tell that person who's trying to set the healthy. 

[00:17:05] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I would say being consistent and being really clear and not kind of backing down and thinking about what you deserve and what your wants and needs are, and how to voice them in a way without blame or judgment as much as the other person not understanding you can feel really invalidating.

[00:17:27] Danielle Blessing Taylor: You know, even using that word and just expressing that, you know, you, you're just trying to feel heard and you know they're making you. Feel really hurt by them pulling away and just kind of putting emotion to it. You know, we use I statements and Imago dialogues and, but using an I statement with, you know, it makes me feel this way when you do that.

[00:17:46] Danielle Blessing Taylor: It seems so simple, but sometimes we forget that and we can just, Go in with blame and then the other person will just get defensive. And when really you're just trying to set a boundary and remembering obviously the boundaries for us and not for them, we can't [00:18:00] control them. We can't make them do or not do something, but we can get our point across our concern.

[00:18:06] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Really, it's getting the care and the concern and the feelings across as, as opposed to the anger and the frustration that they feel. 

[00:18:12] John Cordray: I think you bring up a really good point, and the, the iMessages is, is really, really, I. In any relationship, but especially in a relationship where there's some codependency going on, and I kind of, a phrase that I tried to tell my clients is try to remember I before you.

[00:18:31] John Cordray: So you start the conversation with i I messages, it's like maybe I need some time. Or I feel hurt when you said that instead of starting with you, because so often when you start with you, there's usually a globalizing statement afterwards. You always or you never, and that does not go well. Yeah. 

[00:18:54] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And then I know it's frustrating.

[00:18:56] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I'm sure people who are listening can relate to the fact that you say an I statement and then the other [00:19:00] person makes it about them. And then you're kind of battling between two I statements and you're going head to head of, well, I feel this. Why I feel that. And so that can get really frustrating. It 

[00:19:12] John Cordray: can and and that's the thing here, when we're talking about an insecure attachment with at least one person, they're operating out of fear and self-protection.

[00:19:23] John Cordray: They may not be able to articulate that, but that's really what's going on. That's the root of it, right? Using your analogy. And when you get to the heart of the issue and the root of the issue, it comes down to how the other partner is feeling and they're looking to the other partner as a way of making them feel more safe and.

[00:19:45] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, and then even going one step deeper is what I like to do. Looking at where the attachment style that is even showing up because it can change, your attachment style can change whether it be for through covid or just a certain relationship, [00:20:00] but we look at what your attachment style was before and what it is now and where both came from and what's being kind of triggered.

[00:20:07] Danielle Blessing Taylor: What is making you feel sensitive about the person? You know, if they're pulling away, if they're not listening, if you're not feeling heard. And I always tell people to pay attention to the messages that go through your head. Like the automatic thoughts of, you know, I don't feel heard, I'm not good enough.

[00:20:21] Danielle Blessing Taylor: They don't care. And then trying to think of, well, who are you? Who are you talking to? Like is it this person in front of you or is it somebody from your past? Typically caregivers or from the beginning of our life, we try to re. You know, in relationships. 

[00:20:37] John Cordray: Yeah. I like that a lot. Well, so that's a little bit about codependency.

[00:20:41] John Cordray: Let's talk a little bit about enmesh and what exactly is that? 

[00:20:46] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, I would say to me, they kind of go hand in hand. They're so similar, it's hard to tell them apart, but I would say ment, it reminds me of. Like a separate but connected relationship is the goal. And so enmeshed, I [00:21:00] kind of tell people if you put both of your hands together and intertwine your fingers around each other, kind of making a, a fist in one, all of the fingers are touching the other hand.

[00:21:10] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so it's very intertwined and, and entangled and you feel each other's emotions and you. You are one with their thoughts and their behaviors, and it's just kind of one person. But if you separate your two hands and make two fists and then bring your two fists touching together, that's a separate but connected relationship.

[00:21:30] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so we want each person to have a, a differentiation of self. So having their own thoughts and feelings, but their own friends and their own life outside of the relationship, but then still being able to come back and connect with their partner and have that, that part of the relationship as well. 

[00:21:49] John Cordray: And I think that's a great analogy and I I love that visual with your fingers and then, and then the fist in.

[00:21:55] John Cordray: You're exactly right. So what we're talking about here, we are talking about [00:22:00] healthy boundaries and trying to establish and maintain healthy boundaries for both people in their relationship because in a codependent relationship, their friends come second. But it's so important to have a well rounded relationships in our lives, and the person who is codependent are more likely to not hang out with their friends, but yet that's one of the best things that they could do for the relat.

[00:22:25] John Cordray: Yeah, 

[00:22:25] Danielle Blessing Taylor: and it feels hard and it feels awkward to do, and it's just, it takes time and it's an adjustment. 

[00:22:32] John Cordray: So you're exactly right. And someone may be listening to this and they might be thinking, oh, maybe I am codependent. Mm-hmm. , maybe I kind of enmesh with my partner and I didn't realize that until just now.

[00:22:46] John Cordray: What would be something that you could tell that. 

[00:22:49] Danielle Blessing Taylor: I would encourage to kind of validate yourself first, that there's a reason that this is happening, whether it be from your own [00:23:00] upbringing, your past experiences, your past relationships, any trauma, anything you've been through. But it also, it could be situational, you know, environmental, like maybe covid related, maybe working from home, whatever it is that trying to really validate yourself is so important.

[00:23:16] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Not looking at yourself as such a problem. and then looking at where the problem causes a problem. Because just in general, I mean there's, I try to help people look at, there are some positives to codependency and ment. I mean, you are, you're really connected. You, you know, you can really talk about emotions and even though you can go head to head and have, get frustrated with each other, you do have that really sweet part that you really like each other, you love each other, and you're there for each other.

[00:23:44] Danielle Blessing Taylor: So, Where does it become a problem, you know? And where does it affect your functioning in your relationship, in your job, whatever it is. 

[00:23:54] John Cordray: Yeah. And that's really important to remember. And also, I like what you said a little [00:24:00] bit ago about how their feelings are valid, and it's very easy to get to the, especially when someone's setting a boundary for you just to get into that negative think.

[00:24:15] John Cordray: That maybe, oh, there's something wrong with me or I'm a bad person. And that's not at all what you're saying, but what you're saying is there are some behaviors that, that are rooted in something that's deeper and we wanna get to the deeper part. And why are you feeling unsafe? And I, I would imagine that's a, a lot of what you do in your practice and talking to couples who have codependency in their relat.

[00:24:43] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, I've been seeing it more and more and then start looking at, you know, my own life and I think everybody's a little guilty of it sometimes. It can be really easy to fall into and hard to see and hard to come out of. Yeah. 

[00:24:58] John Cordray: We all have blind spots. [00:25:00] Yeah. And it's a gradual thing. It doesn't happen just overnight.

[00:25:05] John Cordray: It's, it's gradual. And, and so that means that a little, a little bit more time and, and more codependency, a little bit more ment and just, and all of a sudden it's the, the other person is feeling smothered. And it's kind of the same way of trying to break apart and become individuals. That's not gonna happen overnight.

[00:25:27] John Cordray: It's gonna be a little bit, little progress, a little bit here, a little bit there, and a lot of work. And so it's, it's not, it's not going to get better overnight, just like it didn't get to where it is overnight. So is it possible, Danielle, looking at the time here, we're running low on time, but is it possible for a couple who's really struggling with codependency in their relat.

[00:25:53] John Cordray: Is it possible to have a healthy boundaries with each other? 

[00:25:58] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Oh, I think it's totally possible. [00:26:00] Yeah. And it takes really a lot of conscious effort, and I would say weekly sit downs, whether you're going through codependency or not. I think it's really important just at least every week, just addressing.

[00:26:12] Danielle Blessing Taylor: The I, I call them kind of sandwich conversations, you know, starting with like an appreciation and the validation, but then going into what you need and then at the end, coming up with a plan, you know, moving forward. But talking with each other and keeping that line of communication open I think is so important.

[00:26:31] John Cordray: It's very important. Yeah. Very well. Well, I have one more question for you, and it's a question that I ask all of my guests and I actually talk a lot about self care and how important it is for our lives, and I'm curious what, what are some things that you do for self care? 

[00:26:51] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, so I'm obviously not perfect at it, but what I try to do is I.

[00:26:57] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Walk my dog something [00:27:00] basic, but I walk my dog at least two, three times a day. And I try to do it with my husband when he is working from home so that we have that connection time. And then the other thing is I try to stay physically active. I, I do like a bar class, but I need to, you know, get my heart pumping and get all of the stress and the tension out.

[00:27:20] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so I, I find that really affects my mood. I can tell. So. I do that, you know, in the morning. And then I'm just really patient, I think with myself too. And I'll take a nap if I need to or take a, a break and just get my mind off of things. You know, being a therapist or any other job out there, like a lawyer or anything where you have to, you know, we're always on all the time no matter what job you have.

[00:27:43] Danielle Blessing Taylor: And so just turning off my brain every now and then, couple times a day at. Really 

[00:27:49] John Cordray: helps. Nice. I like that. Yeah. Turning off our brain, finding things that we enjoy to do. I, I totally agree with that. That's so important. All right, so one more time. If, [00:28:00] if somebody is listening to this and they're really interested in working with you or someone on your, on your team, what's the best way the, the website that they can go?

[00:28:11] Danielle Blessing Taylor: Yeah, they can go to www.my mfts.com and they can send me a contact form through there. And then our phone number is on there as well. I receive all of the messages or the emails or the phone voicemails so they can always contact 

[00:28:27] John Cordray: me. Great. And so they might be actually talking to you personally? Yeah.

[00:28:32] John Cordray: All right. Love to talk to them. I like that. Very nice. Well, if you're listening to this and you have a relationship or maybe you know someone who has a relationship that then there's some codependency in it, I want you to be encouraged. Don't lose hope. It doesn't mean that you have to break up with the person.

[00:28:50] John Cordray: It means that you probably need to get professional help. And I said that, that this does not happen overnight and it's not going to get better over. [00:29:00] But you really need, and I would recommend that you talk to a therapist like Danielle who specializes in codependency and really work on what you need to do and how to do it, and how to love one another as you do it.

[00:29:16] John Cordray: Because setting boundaries is an actual a, a very loving thing to. And so learning how to do that is really important. Like doing iMessages and being firm and assertive in your communication is so important. And you learn that from a therapist. And so it, it would be my recommendation. I know Danielle would say the same, that if you're struggling, get help, get professional help to help you work through.

[00:29:44] John Cordray: Well, friends, thank you so much for listening to the show. I really appreciate you and I, I know that some of you, this is something that's been real to you. It's, it hits. And I want you all to continue to work on your mental health. You know that I'm, [00:30:00] I'm your biggest advocate, and you also know that the Mental Health Today Show has been championing your mental health since 2015.

[00:30:09] John Cordray: Take care.