Men’s Mental Health And Why It Matters With Dr. Elena Herrera

[00:00:00] John Cordray: All right, so this episode we are going to be talking about men's mental health and why it matters. So if you're a man, I want you to listen up. If you're a woman who has a man in your life, you're gonna wanna listen up because I have a very special guest with me today. And we're gonna talk specifically about men's mental health and why it matters coming.

[00:00:22] John Cordray: Welcome back to The Mental Health Today Show. My name is John Cordray and I am a licensed therapist and the host of this show, and I am very, very happy that you're here, especially if you are a man or if you are a woman who has a man in your life.

[00:00:38] John Cordray: We're gonna talk. Men's mental health, and I think personally, this is something that needs to be talked about more. We're gonna be talking to a specialist who sees men all the time, and that's really what her focus is right now. And in a minute I'm gonna bring on a Dr. Herrera and she is a bilingual therapist in a [00:01:00] licensed psychologist in San Jose, California.

[00:01:02] John Cordray: She is an associate director at a large psychology clinic in the Bay Area and the owner of Herrera Psychological Services, and it's a private practice in San Jose. She has over 15 years of experience in treating children, families, and adults, as well as clinical training of future psychologists. Ooh, I like that.

[00:01:22] John Cordray: And she has recently been focusing her practice on men's mental health. Dr. Herrera, welcome to the. Thank you so much for having me, John. Oh, you're welcome. And I am so excited about talking about this topic. I can't believe that I haven't really talked about this topic yet in this show, so I'm thrilled to talk about this because I know this is an issue.

[00:01:45] John Cordray: This is a major issue. A lot of men, especially men, and I can pick on men cuz I am one. A lot of times we as men can say to ourselves, I don't need the. I'm fine. I can [00:02:00] get through this, right? The man's motto. And a lot of times it's the man's ego that gets in the way and we don't want to accept help. So have you found that in your practice?

[00:02:13] Dr. Elena Herrera: Oh my gosh. All the time. All the time. And you know what? As a woman, I can probably say that I might be guilty of kind of upholding that belief, you know? With the men in my life, maybe do I ask them about their mental health? Do I ask them how they're doing? I'd like to think that I do, but probably not as much as I do.

[00:02:35] Dr. Elena Herrera: The women in my life, my friends, my colleagues, it's more acceptable to talk about. So I think we're guilty 

[00:02:41] John Cordray: too, as women. Yeah, no, you bring that up. A very, very good point. And it seems to be, in our society anyway, there's even more of a stigma when it comes to men's mental health. But I think you're, You're exactly right.

[00:02:55] John Cordray: I think women tend to talk about their emotions more than [00:03:00] men, and that can be an issue because men tend to sweep things under the rug and not deal with. Until it's too late. And I'm sure you have have experienced that in your practice. So have you had men come to you on their own in your practice for their mental health?

[00:03:19] John Cordray: Or has a woman in their life urged them? What do you see more in your practice? 

[00:03:26] Dr. Elena Herrera: Yeah, I mean, I definitely have a few stragglers, you know, a few men who maybe have more of an open attitude about it, and so they're self referred. But just kind of thinking off the top of my head right now, currently, and in the past, more often than not, It's very often the case.

[00:03:43] Dr. Elena Herrera: They are pushed by a boss who's usually a woman or some spouse or a partner in their life, and it's usually a woman. So right now I'm thinking about one particular person and and his wife said, You better go. You better go. And he's not [00:04:00] anti therapy, but he wouldn't have gone on his own. There's no way.

[00:04:04] Dr. Elena Herrera: And so I think there is this kind of closed off attitude from men and, and I don't think that it's their fault necessarily. I think a lot of the messages are, you've gotta be tough and it's not okay to talk about these things. Or what's mental health? You know? Why is that even important? You know, maybe if, if I have a heart problem or if I've got headaches, oh yeah, maybe I'll check that out.

[00:04:24] Dr. Elena Herrera: But if I've got problems with my feelings or my mood, I'm not really gonna talk about 

[00:04:30] John Cordray: it so much. Yeah, and you're exactly right. I had a private practice as well, and same the men who came to me voluntarily. They would shamelessly say, Well, I'm, I'm struggling with this, but not many people know. I don't really talk about it.

[00:04:45] John Cordray: I've even had men come in to see me and said that they'd never even told their wife that they were struggling. They were keeping in a secret because they were ashamed. And that's why I think this topic is so important because I think there is a lot of [00:05:00] shame that comes with mental health in general, but when it comes to men's mental health, there is a lot of shame and a lot of stigma.

[00:05:07] John Cordray: And you, you said it very well, that I think as men, we are trained from very early on that we need to be tough and we tend to translate that as we need to be tough and then not. Deal with our own emotions. And so what would be something that you have seen in your practice with working with men? What are some of the common issues that you see?

[00:05:36] John Cordray: Yeah, 

[00:05:37] Dr. Elena Herrera: so you know, first to kind of speak to your point about men being kind of ashamed of being trained to, to be tough. There's a guy I'm working with right now who. He likes to think of himself as somewhat evolved. Like he doesn't believe in that kind of, those kind of archaic beliefs. And yet he says, You know, part of me thinks that I need to be tough, even though I think that's stupid, but I'm [00:06:00] still feeling a lot of embarrassment and shame just talking to you.

[00:06:03] Dr. Elena Herrera: So that is a struggle too, that kind of. Complicates the other things that often bring men to see me. So it makes it a lot harder, at least with women. I mean, not that there isn't shame, but at least there isn't that kind of overarching concern of I should be able to handle this. I've gotta be tough. So when, if you've got this added layer of, maybe I'm depressed, maybe I'm anxious, maybe whatever.

[00:06:30] Dr. Elena Herrera: And then I'm feeling ashamed even being here. It really complicates things. And progress can be a little bit slower because we have to get through all that sort of weed, all those weeds just to sort of pull out before we can get to the, to the real meat of the problem. But I think right now what I'm seeing a lot, I tend to work with a lot of tech and engineering STEM type of fields because of where I live in the Silicon Valley.

[00:06:55] Dr. Elena Herrera: And that is just such. Overload of [00:07:00] stress. So I see men with a lot of stress and burnout out with physical problems, maybe health problems along the way. And it's probably a mental health component that's worsening it, depression. And lately what I've seen an uptick of is marital problems. So men just having a lot, a lot of problems with their wives and not knowing how to deal with it.

[00:07:24] John Cordray: Mm. Yeah, and that can bring, not knowing how to deal with it. For men, I can speak for men, we tend to want to know how to fix things. A lot of times we're fixers and we wanna solve the problem. And when it's an issue with our spouse, for instance, like you mentioned, and whether the spouse, our spouse is depressed or anxious or maybe has some other mental illness, we can't really fix.

[00:07:54] John Cordray: We don't know how to manage our own emotions. It could come out in a wrong [00:08:00] way. We might desire to help, but it could come out as very unhelpful and we might say things we don't mean to say or do things that we don't mean to do. And that this, like you said, perpetuates the problem. So, Absolutely. So what would you say to men right now who are listening to this, or maybe it's a, a woman who has a man in their life or a son and they're really wanting to have their man, the man in their life, go to counseling.

[00:08:34] John Cordray: What would you say to them to encourage. 

[00:08:38] Dr. Elena Herrera: Ooh, that's a good one. I think the first important thing is to recognize that men have mental health concerns as well. So in order for women to talk about it with whoever man it is in their lives, they have to first recognize that this is an issue. So if you don't know [00:09:00] if this is an issue or not, I would say look at things that you might not consider as a mental health problem.

[00:09:05] Dr. Elena Herrera: The way we experience and process, we, being a woman is gonna be very different. If I'm depressed, I'm gonna be more likely to say that I'm depressed. I might say I'm sad, I might say I'm feeling down or, or low or something like that. It's not that men can't say it, it's just frequently what I have seen is that men are less like, To say it or they might display it in ways that makes it harder to detect.

[00:09:31] Dr. Elena Herrera: And so that also can make it really difficult. So first women, you've gotta identify that the guy in your life might be struggling if you see anger and irritability, which is tough because how do you talk to somebody who's angry all the time? It can be pretty scary. So if somebody's angry or irritable, or if they're maybe drinking more, smoking more, or picking up habits that they wouldn't typically do or doing more of gambling, for example, [00:10:00] that's red flag zone right there.

[00:10:02] Dr. Elena Herrera: That is an area that could signify that there's something going on if both of you have shared something significant together. You know, heaven forbid a loss of somebody in your life or something very stressful. If you're struggling, guess what he is to ask him about it. How are you feeling? This is how I'm feeling.

[00:10:21] Dr. Elena Herrera: Don't expect an answer right away, but I think by giving an invitation, by expressing how you're feeling, it can welcome the guy a little bit. Like, this is okay. Hey, I'm noticing you look a little bit more stressed. How are you feeling right now? So it's gonna take probably several run throughs of that before you can venture to the conversation of, Hey, I think it's time for you to see a therapist, so I wouldn't rush to that.

[00:10:49] Dr. Elena Herrera: And I know I'm talking lot, so I wanna hear your point, John. But one thing I wanna mention too is a lot of the guys who come in to see me say that their wives made them come in kind of [00:11:00] over a threat. like, You better go. That is the worst way to get somebody to go to therapy. And women, I know, I know you're feeling really desperate.

[00:11:08] Dr. Elena Herrera: I know you're feeling like something's gotta change. I totally get that. But if somebody ever threatened you with something and made you do something, I don't know how much of a willing participant you'd. So as much as possible, try not to give kind of ultimatums the threats. Just don't do that. 

[00:11:26] John Cordray: not good.

[00:11:27] John Cordray: I love that you said that because I think a lot of times women, that's kind of their last resort. Maybe there's a woman that's listening to this and they've been trying to get their husband to go to the counseling over and over and over for years and maybe the husband said, Yeah, I need to do that. Yeah, I need to do that.

[00:11:46] John Cordray: But never really pursued. And she might be getting really frustrated and at her wits end and, and she might be tempted to say, You need to do this, or else, and you're exactly [00:12:00] right. For a guy to have that ultimatum that's kind of fighting words and they'll, they'll eat a run away or, or they're fight back.

[00:12:09] John Cordray: And that just perpetuates the problem. And like you said, it can make it a lot worse. So I always encourage women when you have a man in your life that you're wanting to go to counseling, try to come about If I messages instead of you when you first start the conversation, meaning I would feel slow, loved, and cared for if you went to therapy.

[00:12:36] John Cordray: So I, before you, instead of starting the conversation, you need to go to a therapist. I would feel better, It would mean a lot to me if you went so a different way of saying it, but you're saying the same thing. 

[00:12:51] Dr. Elena Herrera: Yeah. And, and that's such a good point because as you said, you know, men I think are, are sort of socialized to be tough and maybe even [00:13:00] taught to.

[00:13:01] Dr. Elena Herrera: Caretakers. I think a lot of men are just natural caretakers. They want to fix things. Like you said, they're problem solvers. And so by tapping into that eye message, you're really kind of going after a lot of men's natural desire to want to make women happy, to want to fix something, and if going to therapy is something that would make the woman that they love, happy.

[00:13:26] Dr. Elena Herrera: That is much less threatening than you need to go because X, Y, and Z. And if you don't go, then this is gonna happen. Now again, it doesn't mean that all men are gonna respond to that, but it can certainly be a window by using that iMessage. If I would feel this way, I would feel really loved, I would feel really happy.

[00:13:48] Dr. Elena Herrera: I would feel so much better if I knew that you were getting the help that I think you might need. 

[00:13:55] John Cordray: That's exactly right. And you can only do so much to [00:14:00] encourage the man in your life to go to counseling. You can't keep doing it. Can't keep nagging even though you desperately may want him to go. So I wanna switch gears just a little bit now, cuz I asked you, what would you say to a woman encouraged a woman in this?

[00:14:17] John Cordray: What about a man? What would you. Say to a man who's listening to this and maybe maybe his wife did say, or has been saying, You should go see a therapist. In his mind, maybe he's just listening to the show and that's good enough, but he really does need to go to a therapist in maybe he's been put in it off.

[00:14:36] John Cordray: What would you say to that man? 

[00:14:39] Dr. Elena Herrera: Yes. I would say, Hey, you know what, therapists don't bite. Forget about what you've seen on tv. In movies, it's probably 99.9% fake. At least when you come to see me, I'm not gonna have you lying on a couch. I'm not gonna be asking you weird questions. [00:15:00] You know, we're gonna have a conversation and you don't have to see me, you don't have to see a woman.

[00:15:04] Dr. Elena Herrera: Maybe you would feel more comfortable talking with another man who maybe understands what it's like to be a guy in society and and struggling. That's okay too. So figure out what would make you the most comfortable. I'm try and look for that. Is it somebody closer to your age? Is it somebody who you think is like a, a father figure and maybe.

[00:15:25] Dr. Elena Herrera: Make you feel like you're talking to your dad, who you've got a good relationship with. Great. There's therapists that come in lot of different forms and you can find your right fit, but you know, there's nothing stronger than a man who's willing to say, Maybe I shouldn't handle all this on my own. That is so desirable and I can guarantee you that most women feel the same way.

[00:15:48] Dr. Elena Herrera: There's nothing wrong with seeking help that you already do so much. And maybe we wanna help out a little bit and lift some of that weight off your shoulders so you don't have to do it all 

[00:15:59] John Cordray: on your own. [00:16:00] Oh, I love that. What a great encouragement. You know, a lot of times it's, it's a matter of just recognizing and normalizing that men have mental health issues.

[00:16:11] John Cordray: And it may not be major issues. It could be, it could be a major issue, major mental illness, but it could be a anger, for instance, and, and maybe. The man gets angry very, very quickly, and there's a lot of shame, a lot of times that come from that. That's fueled from the anger, and I really liked how you phrased it, that you know, there is no condemnation, there's no shame.

[00:16:37] John Cordray: You can find a therapist that you can relate to, and you can try out therapists because not every therapist is a perfect match. So I think you bring up a lot of good points there for men because it's easy for men to come up with an excuse of why they don't go to therapy. It's too [00:17:00] expensive, it's too long.

[00:17:03] John Cordray: I can't get in. It's too far away. So we, we tend to come up with so many reasons why we don't. And we don't admit it, that you know what? In order to get better, to feel better, we've gotta make some, some effort and take some effort to do this. So tell me a little bit more of what would you say is a reoccurring issue with the men that you are seeing?

[00:17:30] Dr. Elena Herrera: I think right now what I'm seeing a lot of is stress, which is so broad, but. We're still in a pandemic, so you know, and some companies are kind of sort of going back into the office, sort of not staying home. I work with a lot of men right now who are doing both and so. They, they tend to be very focused, very driven, and maybe the women in their lives are also working from home.

[00:17:55] Dr. Elena Herrera: And so there can be kind of this mixed message of, well, you're home, but you're not really here. Well, [00:18:00] no, because I'm focused on work and I can't really be your husband right now, which can lead to marital conflict. But I see a lot of stress from finances, stress from relationships, from work. And I see it usually take form in a lot of physical ways.

[00:18:18] Dr. Elena Herrera: A lot of the men I work with aren't the healthiest, sadly. They might have some bad habits like smoking or drinking, or they're so stressed and tired and burnt out that they're not exercising, so they have no outlets. But then their body's also responding, so they've got high cholesterol. Maybe they're frustrated with their weight.

[00:18:37] Dr. Elena Herrera: Well, you're sitting around and, and not exercising as much, so that's also a problem. So stress is a really broad, broad topic, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't see that in almost all of the men who I work with these days. 

[00:18:52] John Cordray: Oh yeah, no doubt. Stress is a big one. So let's, let's stay on that for a moment on stress.[00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] John Cordray: So I can just see men who are nodding their head and say, Yep, yep, yep. That's me. I'm, I'm really stressed, I'm stressed to the max. What are some tips that you could offer to help with the stress? 

[00:19:12] Dr. Elena Herrera: Yeah, so first you've gotta examine your life. What are you doing? And it's unbelievable, John, that the men who I work with who forget to eat.

[00:19:23] Dr. Elena Herrera: I can't understand that because I'm a foodie, so I, I really don't understand that one. Like I try and empathize, but that one I just can't seem to wrap my head around. So sometimes these tips are just regular old lifestyle things. If you're not eating, start . Get up, take a lunch break, get up and stretch, blink.

[00:19:45] Dr. Elena Herrera: So sometimes these quality of life issues, Need some tweaks. And I remember just working with a guy not too long ago and it was so uncomplicated, and I don't wanna minimize how hard it can be for a lot of [00:20:00] men. But with this particular guy in general, just reminding him to get up every hour or so stretch, go to the bathroom, get some water.

[00:20:10] Dr. Elena Herrera: That right there was really helpful because at least his body felt better. At least then he was viewing his life and his body as something worthy of being taken care of because it was this mindset of, I gotta just go, go, go, go, go. Well, you're beating your body up, so start looking at your body as something that needs to be taken care of.

[00:20:30] Dr. Elena Herrera: Go to the doctor. When's the last time you went get a checkup? So I think it can start right there. You know, just finding some sort of outlet. It really is pretty remarkable how isolated and lonely some men can be. They're not out in the world, they're not interacting, which is just gonna beat up your mental health.

[00:20:53] Dr. Elena Herrera: So, Find some sort of outlet, whether it's being outside, whether it's [00:21:00] exercising, whether it's volunteering. Maybe it's something a little low key maybe you like to read and you haven't read a good book in a long time. Maybe you haven't met up with a friend in a while. I've got a guy who recently started playing basketball with a group of guys, and he does it just once a week, but that's something he looks forward to and it helps him out 

[00:21:18] John Cordray: tremendously.

[00:21:20] John Cordray: Great tips. Yeah. And it all starts with doing things small. They don't have to be great big things. They could be little things, changes in your life and that is so key and, and then you can start with another small thing. So little by little you could actually make a big difference in your life. And it's so easy, like you mentioned, it is very, very easy, especially for men, I think, to neglect ourselves.

[00:21:48] John Cordray: We might be really good at caring and helping other people, but we are so often we neglect our own health. Like you said, maybe we don't eat enough or maybe we eat too [00:22:00] much. Maybe we smoke, maybe we drink too much, and we don't really take time to be thinking about ourselves and our body. You know? Just think about being healthy and drinking plenty of water.

[00:22:14] John Cordray: That's one thing you can. Maybe you go to bed earlier and so you can get more sleep. That's another thing you can do. So adding these things incrementally is going to help you tremendously with your mental health. So Dr. Herrera, I wanna ask you, why does it matter? Why does men's mental health really matter anyway?

[00:22:36] John Cordray: It 

[00:22:36] Dr. Elena Herrera: matters just as much as my mental health matters. And so I think that's something that we have to do better at is saying men's mental health is important. It exists if we don't have healthy functioning men in our lives. People suffer in general, kids suffer. Women suffer. Industries suffer. [00:23:00] Men are half of the population.

[00:23:02] Dr. Elena Herrera: We cannot have them break down. It matters. Men are more likely to kill themselves. Women attempt more, but men actually go through with it, which is very, very scary. It means they are intent on doing it, and so it's a real scary. Health issue that needs to be taken seriously because there's so many consequences if it goes untreated.

[00:23:28] Dr. Elena Herrera: We already know that somebody with poor mental health is probably likely to have very poor physical health, so there's more likelihood that they're gonna be chronically ill, going to the hospital, going to the doctor. Health outcomes are worse for men, and that's mental health. There is a direct link between somebody's mental health and their physical health.

[00:23:50] Dr. Elena Herrera: So it absolutely is important. I don't understand why it isn't in in everyone's eyes. I know that you know, the men who I have [00:24:00] in my life, I care about them. I want them to be around, and so I'm gonna take it seriously. If there's something that I can do, I'm gonna do. And so I know I can speak with a little bit of passion, but it's because I have it.

[00:24:14] Dr. Elena Herrera: I get really, really scared sometimes when I think about just the ways in which the world is going and what it's doing to men in particular. And it's not to kind of devalue what it's like for women, but we're talking about men right now and it can be really scary to think about what direction we're going in in the world and, and how it's affecting.

[00:24:37] John Cordray: I completely agree and we do need to take it serious. And men, if you're listening to this, I want you to take your mental health serious. It doesn't mean that you're less of a person or less of a man if you struggle with anxiety or depression. It doesn't mean that your less of a person, your identity has nothing to do with your mental.

[00:24:59] John Cordray: And [00:25:00] most of the time our mental health are things that happen to us, and that's not your fault, but you can do something about it, and so it really does rest on your shoulders to do something about it. Nobody is going to be able to make you, No one can take it away from. You have to be the one that decides, yes, I need to go and I'm going to go.

[00:25:28] John Cordray: In fact, I'm going to make an appointment right now. So take action. Don't put it off. I want you to be thinking about your own life in what it is that you need to work on. And like I said before, it doesn't matter if it's a big thing or a little thing. Go and like you said, Dr. Rra, you mentioned. If you need to go to the doctor, go to the doctor.

[00:25:51] John Cordray: If you need to go to the dentist, you go to the dentist. If you need to go to a therapist, you should go to a therapist. Definitely. Well, [00:26:00] thank you so much. I appreciate your passion that you have for men's mental health and for all the things that that you do in your practice. Thank you for coming on the show and just sharing your expertise.

[00:26:11] John Cordray: But before I let you go, is one of the things I ask all of my guests is about self. Is something I talk a lot about is self-care and I would love to know what kind of self-care do you do, . 

[00:26:26] Dr. Elena Herrera: I love that question. Well, I have two dogs who I escorted out of my office cause I was not sure how they would behave while I've doing this recording.

[00:26:35] Dr. Elena Herrera: And they are just an endless source of joy for me. So sitting on the couch, petting them, playing with them, taking them places. My husband and I are frequent outside diners so that we can take them with us. You know, most of what I do to take care of myself usually involves my dogs. I also have marathon phone conversations with my [00:27:00] twin sister every single morning over coffee, and that's a really great way to start my day.

[00:27:06] John Cordray: I love that. Oh, so what's a marathon phone conversation? How long are we 

[00:27:11] Dr. Elena Herrera: talking about? Oh my gosh. Well, if we're not rushing to a meeting, then it can be an hour. I'd say on average, probably 45 minutes. But we're living farther apart these days, so our conversations are getting much, much longer. . 

[00:27:28] John Cordray: Yes. So you have to be intentional with that.

[00:27:31] John Cordray: Yeah. Right. And and that's what men need to be. They need to be intentional with their mental health. Ooh, I like that. . Yeah. 

[00:27:41] Dr. Elena Herrera: Take it seriously. Do 

[00:27:42] John Cordray: something. Absolutely. Well, thank you again so much for coming on, on the show, and I appreciate you and, and I, I appreciate all of you who are listening and men, I'm not trying to beat you up.

[00:27:55] John Cordray: This is not about beating you up at all. I'm a man. I get you . [00:28:00] It's about encouraging you to take action, take ownership and be intentional with your mental. And women, if you're listening to this and you have a man that you're trying to get into therapy, keep trying. Don't give up. Just maybe change your tactic and keep trying.

[00:28:17] John Cordray: Don't, don't continue to bug and nag, but don't give up either. Well, thank you guys all for listening to the show, and as always, I appreciate you and I wanna encourage you to continue to work on your mental. And don't forget, the Mental Health Today Show is ING your mental health since 2015. Take.