How Path Is Making Mental Health Treatment More Accessible With Randy Forman And Cynthia Grant

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If

John Cordray: 0:00

you have been looking for mental health treatment for really any period of time, you probably have realized that it is very difficult to have access to a therapist. And most of the time you're gonna wait long, long time, or you're not going to hear back from a therapist. Maybe you, you may a phone. Hoping to, to schedule a session and nobody calls you back. That's a problem. And today we're gonna talk about making mental health treatment more accessible with Randy Foreman and Cynthia Grant in this episode. Of the mental health today show, Welcome back to the mental health today show my name is John Cordray. I am a licensed therapist and the host of the mental health today show. And I am so delighted that you're here again today. And with me, I have some very special guests that I cannot wait to introduce to you first. It's Randy Foreman. And Cynthia Grant, they are both from a mental health tech company called path. And we're gonna learn a little bit more about each of them, but also more about this mental health tech company, Randy, Cynthia, welcome to the show.

Randy Forman: 1:14

Hey, thanks, John. Really excited to be here and excited for the convers. Dito.

John Cordray: 1:21

nice. Nice and sweet. I like that. So, Cynthia, I wanna jump right to you. I know that you have a lot of clinical background in your history and I would love to learn a little bit more about that. And really, how did you get involved with path?

Cynthia Grant: 1:37

Yeah, I'd be happy to talk about that. And John, I love that you're leading with this because one of the things that ultimately is part of this story is how valuable and important it is to have clinical leadership in these mental health tech companies. So happy to tell folks a little bit about myself. I have been a practicing social worker since the mid nineties. And so I've been around the block for a bit. I. Started my career in crisis work and doing a lot of emergency department settings, really learning how to have good intuition and judgment, and also how to stay calm. I made a transition to community mental health and ultimately to private practice, probably about 10 years into my career. And private practice was really a nice spot to be able to have autonomy and to select and sort of work with the clients that were the best fit for me. I really enjoyed it, but ultimately knew that I wanted to be able to be around people and make. More of a macro impact if you will. So I went back to school, I got my PhD in social work added to my clinical repertoire, if you will. And then also picked up quite a few research skills. So from there, I took an academic role and spent about four years as an associate professor realized that was not the right setting for me. And decided to pursue a job that in allowed me to do more research and clinical practice with veterans. And so I was working out of the VA here in the Denver area, but even the VA still just didn't quite hit home for me. And so I wound up full circle back to working in community mental health. And I had a wonderful experience here again in the Denver area. And I wound up working as the chief operating officer and the chief clinical officer in that setting and really had great people, incredibly mission driven that we were really working together to be able to move things forward. I wound up going to school again, every time I make a little bit of a career switch, I. A degree. And I got my MBA in healthcare administration really, so that I could get a better handle on trying to help lead and. Oversee a clinical business. This was all in the nonprofit space. And for all of your listeners out there who work in that setting, you know how much harder we have to do have to work to be able to rub two nickels together. Mm-hmm . I did that for about eight years. And then I had an opportunity to be able to join this company that I hadn't heard of before I was doing some consulting on the side and I wound up meeting some folks at path. and I was just blown away at the possibilities and the potential to be able to reach a very different client population. As you can imagine, a lot of my work had been with some pretty acute clientele and overseeing programs that really hit on more intense mental health needs. And this was something new. And so being able to work in a for-profit setting, fully remote, doing exclusively telehealth after the start of the pandemic was something that I was really excited to be able to give a try and it has not disappointed. So I'm hoping we can talk a little bit more

Randy Forman: 5:30

about that.

John Cordray: 5:32

Yes, that is amazing. And I, I really appreciate what you said. Earlier where it's important for these mental health tech companies to have clinicians in leadership roles. I completely agree with that. And I'm excited to see what's happening in the mental health space with technology. And now we're starting. I mean, for the longest time in mental health technology, We were way behind and now it's like, wow, all this technology in mental health. And we're trying to figure out how this is all work. So, Randy, I would love to hear more about you and your background in how then you got involved with

Randy Forman: 6:16

path. Yeah. Awesome. Well, spoiler, I am not a clinician, so I have to have to pause Cynthia here, but you know, I've spent 20 years, past 20 years or so of my career in healthcare. I've touched almost every area of healthcare, a across those 20 years. And I've spent the last 10 years focused on digital health and really focused on some of the bigger problems facing our country from a healthcare perspective, things like chronic disease, behavioral, and, and mental health. So prior to path, I helped start a company called Livongo health, which was focused on chronic conditions like diabetes and hypertension. And eventually we made our way into the behavioral health space. That company was acquired by tele health just about two years ago. And then I joined path earlier this year, but you know what I saw, you know, talking to. Clients. So we, you know, at Livongo, we would partner with large self-funded employers and health insurance companies or large health systems. You know, mental health always, always comes to the top of the list of, of sort of the challenges that they're seeing in their populations, their members, or, or their patients. And, you know, the there's a variety of different models out there. And, you know, we were, we were selling direct to an employer. There's another part of the business that's direct to consumer and you know, what, what, what I took away from that was that it was great that they were chipping away at this problem, but they weren't creating access for all. So if you could afford, you know, the hundred kinda out pocket cost to find a therapist, you had access, or if your employer happened to be innovative then and buy the solution you had access, but that wasn't really access for all. And. You know, I was when I met the founders of path, just about two and a half years ago when they started the company and, and we've stayed in touch over those two and a half years. And I learned about the model and sort of what made path different. What I saw was that they were really looking to sort of break down those barriers and create true access. And we still have a long way to go. You know, we're right now, we're focused on, on creating access for those that have commercial insurance, but, you know, student look to get into Medicare, Medicaid, you know, our, our goal is to make sure that every American has access to these services. And, and that's, that's part of my job is to be out in the market and. You know, partner with large health systems or employers or college student counseling centers, and make sure that they're aware that, that this solution exists and that we can create create more equitable access.

John Cordray: 8:59

That's fantastic. And you had mentioned earlier that it, you discovered something about path that made it different from others. And can you, can you tell me a little bit more, can you explain a little more about what makes path different?

Randy Forman: 9:12

Yeah. You know, It's interesting because the, the sort of path solution is. Is not the most high tech solution out there. So, you know, what we're doing is simply creating access O obviously leveraging digital health. We can now deliver services remotely from the comfort of your living room or your couch or wherever you are. The big difference is actually doing the hard work and, and making these services available and covered through your insurance, which is not how it works everywhere. And, and part of the problem. We're facing in this country, we have a, a supply shortage of providers and that's exacerbated by the fact that over half of mental health providers don't take a single commercial insurance. And so, you know, if we could actually fix that, if we could make it attractive enough for providers to come work at a company like path and allow them to serve those patients, you know, we can. Make a huge dent in the problem. And so that's where we're starting. There's obviously a, a variety of different ways that we can create access. You know, we could create digital self guided programs, CVT programs that people can, can go through, but, but simply like many people want to talk to a therapist and it's really hard to find one. And so that's where we're starting is sort of the low hanging fruit let's make that. And, you know, the analogy that I like to use is that right now people are fumbling through the yellow pages, trying to find a provider. When, you know, there is the technology is made it so that more of an open table, like experience can exist and you can find what you're looking for, you know, find the right provider for you that can actually see you when you wanna be. That will take your insurance and will help you get better. And that all sounds simple, but for some reason that kind of a solution has alluded, alluded the market for for years. And so that's, that's where we're starting. That's where we're focused. And you're exactly

John Cordray: 11:22

right. We are in a, a mental health crisis and there is a shortage of therapists. And I, I think that speaks to the frustration of so many people who are seeking services for mental health, and they're wanting help. They're looking for help. And yet they can't find it or, or they can't find it very quickly. And there is a problem there, and there is a gap that needs to be filled and, and I think path has a wonderful job with that. So, Cynthia, I wanna pass it off to you. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you on the clinician side. So if there. Therapist who are interested in pursuing more information about path. Can you tell me a little bit about the clinical side and then as well as I know you wanted to talk about some of the, the exciting things that are happening with path. Love to hear about that

Cynthia Grant: 12:13

too. Yep. Definitely. You know, being a clinician at path is very freeing and we have great, our, our providers are really happy and I think that's something that we all need to be take, be able to take a minute and be proud of. We make it really easy for providers to be able to show up and do clinical work with the clients that they want to work with. So from a provider perspective, it is, it we're really taking all the burden off of providers, everything from credentialing, with insurance panels, to being able to get referrals, to doing all of the billing. Things that private practitioners for years have always known are really the, the detractors from doing this work. And you all, we were talking about access and access. When you have commercial insurance is an absolute nightmare because of the nightmare that a provider has to go through in order to be able to get paid for the work and path is helping address. For providers. It's one of the things that I know our providers are very happy with, but the other thing about that, cuz there are other places that take insurance is that we, we really take care of our providers too. Mm. You know, we have. Support for them so that they can pick up the phone or send an email when they need help. They get their, we have somebody to hold their hand to walk them through the entire onboarding process. We have a provider success team. These are concepts that I never saw in the nonprofit world. And they're, they're really spectacular in terms of being able to have someone who has the clinical skills to do the work. And it's, it's hard work that's being done, but to be able to do that and then know that you have someone that you can reach out to, if you get stuck on any of the administrative pieces and that we're there for the provider, I just feel really strongly that companies that are taking care of providers are therefore taking the best care of their clients. And in particular, because we've been growing so large in the states where we're active, we're just able to reach such a wide variety of people. And when people are seeking care, they often want to find someone who looks like them or has a similar life experience, or maybe they want someone who has a particular theoretical approach. And our system allows for patients to get matched with exactly the person they need. And. In addition, you know, there's websites or portals, you can go in with an insurance company and you'll see a list of 200 providers. But as you mentioned at the start, you know, you start picking up the phone and calling all these places and no one's no one's available or they're no longer taking that insurance. Path cuts through all that noise and only gives when we match people, we really only give people three to five therapists. You know, if you're looking for an African American female therapist in Illinois who specializes in postpartum, Depression, we will give you three people. Mm-hmm we won't give you a whole list of all these people who may or may not have specialties that specialty or who may not be on your panel. And that is that that's a special something mm-hmm that I think really makes a difference. And because of that, in part, because of that matching and because we've. Some phenomenal therapist. We are able to show that some of the outcomes associated with receiving care at path are very, very strong. I mentioned to you at the start that when I was doing some consulting and when I started considering a role with path, the co-founder, the founders were actually able to show me data. That they had already been collecting from the get go about whether or not a person's depression or their anxiety got better as a result of receiving care. And in many, many spaces, we talk about how important it is to have tangible, quantifiable data about how we know that the work we're doing actually makes a difference for people. And very few places have that. Hmm. And path has had that really from the start. There's data and I'm not gonna, I, I don't have the exact numbers right in front of me, but I know that there is anywhere from a 30 to a 50% improvement in the measures that we use to look at depression and anxiety, things like the PHQ nine and the GAD seven. And so even at, at a preliminary level, Path is just light years ahead. As far as being able to share that information. When Randy's talking with partners and health plans, people wanna know that this work that's being done behind the computer with a real person, that's making a difference. Mm-hmm and that's something that we've been a that's something that path has been able to do, which I, I just find, I just find remarkable.

John Cordray: 17:49

Oh, that's fantastic. So, Randy, I wanna throw it back to you kind of piggyback off what Cynthia was talking about. So can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Randy Forman: 17:59

Yeah. Yeah. You know, obviously the outcomes piece is, is, is really important. Being able to demonstrate the outcomes, but we have to start, you know, by measuring outcomes. And, and that's something that I, I think you'll see path really on, on the leading edge and driving true measurement based care. But you know, the other thing Cynthia mentioned just about the, the ability to curate the, the. Match between the patient and the provider super important. And we're actually, you know, we see data that that shows basically two improvement in the outcome. When you give the, you know, language spoken clinical experience, when you're able to make that match, which path is able to. I think the latest data that I saw was about 98% of the time were able to match the, the patient to the provider that they're looking for. We see a significant improvement and, and I think that's super important again, you know, if we just created access for everyone to high quality providers, that would be a great start, but you know, where we can actually improve upon that by getting people, not just through a warm body that can treat them, but to the right person. I think we're gonna see a huge impact through that.

Cynthia Grant: 19:16

That's amazing. Randy, we have to add to, we do it so fast. People are used to, people are used to not being able to find a provider, let alone a really good one, but then they have to wait. So even when people, when people do this on their own, myself included, I mean, I have two. Adult children. And one of my boys, young men needed a provider and it was just, it was so difficult. We have commercial insurance. This was obviously before I joined path, it was so difficult to be able to find someone and path will not only find someone in network that is the right fit, but then people get in for services almost immediately.

Randy Forman: 20:03

Amazing. Yep. I, I'm pretty sure that we, we probably have, I dunno, 10, 15 minutes left here. I'm sure. In about half that time, I could go into the path website, find the provider and have my first appointment within 72 hours. Yeah. Wow. It's that? It's literally that easy. Yep.

John Cordray: 20:19

So, alright. I, I, I gotta pause you guys here for a minute. I gotta just process this what right now. So what you're saying. Is that path is allowing people who are looking for a therapist, not just an eight therapist, but a therapist that they feel like they can really truly identify with and feel safe with that's important. And they're able to find somebody and then you would path would be able to produce up to three therapists that matches what they're looking for. And not only that to be able to do it within what, 72 hours. That's

Randy Forman: 21:01

incredible. Yeah, you can be scheduled. You can, you can be scheduled or booked within minutes and have your first appointment within 72 hours. So

John Cordray: 21:10

for those of you who are listening, if you have ever tried to find a therapist, let alone contact one. And if you did contact one, make an appointment and get in, it will probably be weeks. If not, months to get. And what Randy and Cynthia are, have just said with the path, they are able to be able to help you, who are looking for a specific type of therapist. You'll be able to get in very quickly. And the providers that you'll have, there are three to choose from not 200 as Cynthia was talking about. So you're not gonna be overwhelmed and path will vet them. So they're not gonna give you just any therapist. They're gonna just hand pick these therapists for you to choose from. And that is incredible. And, and I, and if you've looked for a therapist, you know how amazing that is so well done path, this is, this is amazing. And I think you are really, really honing in on a big problem and coming up with a solution. Now, Cynthia, I wanted to come back to you to follow up with that. Cuz you had mentioned path is only available in certain states, right? Can you tell me a little bit more about.

Cynthia Grant: 22:26

Half has been pretty deliberate about where we are providing services. The company started in California and many of the decisions about which state we operate in depends on the percentage of people in that state that have commercial insurance. And so we are specifically targeting states that have a very high number of people with commercial insurance, so that we. Are able to make sure that we're delivering services to those people. The next state that we opened in, in tech was in Texas. And so you see a pattern here with like some very big high population states. And as we have grown in each new state that we've taken on. What we've found is that we're essentially carving out the market for mental health clinicians. There are so many path clinicians in the state of California and growing in Texas in Illinois, New York, Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, Virginia, Randy, what am I missing? did I get 'em?

Randy Forman: 23:33

I think you got most, yeah. New York, Ohio, Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Texas, Illinois, California, I think. Yep. I think I got all of them there.

Cynthia Grant: 23:41

Yep. I might have missed my Florida peeps. So the fact that you can, that we are. Attracting therapists in these different states allows us to make sure that we have more and more access for people that have commercial insurance in those states, which is great. And again, yep. You, you, you called this out John, that these are really good providers. Most of our providers have many years of experience. We have a lot of people that are doing kind of like what I did early on in my career. They may have a full-time job, but then they do private practice on the side. So they'll see, you know, a small caseload of 10 or 12 people. We have other people who are making a transition from one job to be able to do private practice full time. We have very experienced therapists who are towards the tail end of their career, and just have so much value to be able to add. And so I, I also think that's important. You know, these are all licensed providers with many years of experience. They tell us what they wanna specialize in. They tell us what type of client they're looking for. And we listen to that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, we talked a lot about how easy it is for the client. But it, I would be remiss to sort of call out again that it's really easy for the provider also mm-hmm cause providers tend to know what they're really good at. They tend to know what client kind of clients they're going to have the best fit with how they're going to treat how they're, what populations they work best with. And that is just as I. You know, and that is part of what we know will strengthen the therapeutic Alliance, which is something that we're gonna be starting. We're we're starting to measure that path along with some other outcome measures, to really be able to tell the story and identify some quality control issues so that we know that our providers are doing the work that we. That they've set out to do. And so that they can really have a partnership with the client and being able to track how's this relationship going? How are you progressing? Whether that's because of substance misuse, or if it's because of suicide, suicidal ideation, anxiety, we really wanna be able to keep a. Watch on that. And that's part of where those outcome measures that we've alluded to a little bit throughout this call really give us an advantage. And so we're right on the cusp of being able to know truly all of the different variables that make a difference for our clients and our providers. Well,

John Cordray: 26:28

that's fantastic.

Randy Forman: 26:30

I was just gonna jump into Cynthia. You sort of touched on a little bit or maybe think about the, the sort of scope of services that, that we provide. And, and I think that's also a differentiator. I therapy companies out there focus. You know, anxiety and depression, where for a variety of reasons, which, you know, Cynthia, maybe you can dive deeper on, but we're able to, to handle the more complex cases. So substance misuse eating disorder, PTSD. And part of this is because of some of the other services that we wrap around care coordination services, the ability to kinda follow that patient, be able to help find different levels of care if, if path isn't the right or the only place where they need to seek care. And generally you don't get paid for that work. But that's part of the, the service that we provide that I think is a huge differentiator. So there's really. Wouldn't be a whole lot that you wouldn't be able to come to path for and, and, and not be able to address

John Cordray: 27:33

that is awesome. Simply awesome. So I, I wanted to, Cynthia, I, I, I wanted to kinda go back to the states cuz you, you and Randy kinda listed off the different states, does path have a plan to open up more states?

Cynthia Grant: 27:48

Well, that's a good question. Randy might be better equipped to be the one to give the answer to that. I can tell you that from my perspective, at the executive level, the focus is on doing a phenomenal job in the states where we operate. Mm-hmm . and as companies continue to scale, it is very important not to grow too fast. Mm-hmm to, because you don't wanna lose the ethical nature of how your business operates. You don't wanna compromise on quality. And so my understanding and what we often talk about is that our focus right now, and that may change cuz we are a tech company. So things happen fast mm-hmm . But my understanding right now is that we're really focusing on doing a fantastic job in those states where we currently exist. Randy, what else would you add to that

Randy Forman: 28:48

narrative? Yeah, I, I think that's right. I think, you know, this. Two a two-sided marketplace and you have to have a healthy balance of supply and demand when you stand up this market, because if you have a bunch of supply, so if we have a lot of providers, but we don't have demand, then we have unhappy providers who schedules aren't being filled. And again, that's a big part of the value proposition that we provide for our therapists is that we are, we do the work that will fill their schedule and, and fill it with the right, the right patients. So we, we wanna create healthy marketplace. This is part of, you know, what I spend every day doing, try to create awareness about what path is doing. Our biggest limiting factor is that we don't have, you know, tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to go market and have ads on TV. And so, you know, people don't know that this really easy solution to, to find access exists. So we spend a lot of time trying to find these partnerships again, like large health systems who refer a lot of patients, outpatient therapy to, to create a partnership where they can, you know, very easily refer those patients. They have folks who, who spend their whole day trying to help. Their patients get to the right care and they go through all this work and we can make that a lot easier for them. And by the way, we do this at, at, at no cost to, to those those partners. Hmm. But yeah, so, so, but, but to answer the question, we will eventually, I think have a national footprint again, we wanna grow responsibly. You know, the, the old mantra and tech is move fast and break things, but you can't do that in healthcare. And so we need to make, this is working for all our constituents, which are providers and our patients. You know, there are other ways that we will expand. So we just launched psychiatry services in California. We'll start to fast follow those services in, in other states, you know, we have a high demand for other populations. So Medicare, Medicaid, as I mentioned, obviously we have growing demand for these services and folks under 13, which today we serve 13 and above. Obviously there's an opportunity there as well, but so short answer is yes, we'll, we'll get there, but you know, we, we wanna do so in a, in a healthy and responsible. I liked it a lot

John Cordray: 31:06

because it, to me that describes the integrity of the company. And that is important to me. And I know it's important to, to my audience as well. Very excited that to learn more about path and I just want to encourage my listeners to, to go and check it out, go check out the website and it's there for you to look at. And you know, there's a lot of good information there. So before we leave, though, Randy and Cynthia. I am interested in hearing from each of you. What I, I talk a lot about self-care and to take care of ourselves, cuz we are helpers and we are you guys, you, you guys are busy, I'm busy. There's certain things that I do that I enjoy. I go outside, I, I ride bikes and go on for hikes with my wife. Love to know what, what is it that you do each of you for your own self care and rainy? I'll let you go first.

Randy Forman: 32:02

Oh man. Well, let's see. I you know, I try to stay active. And so that is, I either go for long walks or I'll go swim. I, I do like to golf, so I'll go mindlessly, hit golf balls for an hour. And, and, and that's a big destressor for me, but otherwise I spend time with my family. I have I have two kids 10 and two year old daughters. We have a gigantic golden doodle. So, you know, family time is, is sort of the, the way we decompress unless they're having a meltdown. And then that is creates more stress, but , but yeah, no, try to stay active and yeah, long walks are probably the, the best one for me. Yeah. I

John Cordray: 32:42

love that Cynthia, about you. Yeah.

Cynthia Grant: 32:44

I, I, I do a lot of those things as well, and I have the added bonus that I'm in the mountains. And so I can add skiing in the winter. I go roller skating on Sundays in town. And so that's fun, but I think that the other thing that's always important for me to remember is I, I also, I, I. I mean, I am a human right. I like to connect with people. And so whether that is having a chit chat with a coworker, even in a remote world I was just talking with someone about a book that I finished over the weekend. What she's reading. We have little coffee talks that we use to decompress and you can get paired with other people. I take my lunch outside with the dog every day. I, I think that some of that human connection that we are so used to having in an office environment, what I have to do to make sure to take care of myself is to be sure that I'm recreating that in small ways. Mm-hmm so that I still activate that part of who I am. Because I'm, I'm still a clinician. I still see clients in private practice. I have friends that are clinicians. I definitely have a community of people who, you know, we're coming from the same space and we need to be able to decompress, but I think it's been really great to be able to see how you can do that in an online community as

Randy Forman: 34:15

well.

John Cordray: 34:16

Absolutely. You are speaking music to my ears there. Being able to, to talk about the connection even virtually. Yeah. Very, very important. Well, our time is run short here and I, I wanna give each of you one more thing that to leave us with in regards to path. And as I'm talking here, I want you to be kind of formulating that because I want you to leave us with one final thought with path and maybe one of you can give the, the website that people can go to. I will certainly have it in the show notes as well, but I, I just wanna thank you both. And for being here and taking the time to come on the show and so give me one final thought from each of you in Cynthia. I'll let you go first.

Cynthia Grant: 35:00

So you nailed it. When you said earlier that this is a company that is filled with integrity. And I think that that is extremely important, given all the different information that we hear about not just mental health services, but telehealth services. This is a highly ethical, high quality. Organization with clinicians who are truly, truly compassionate and committed to helping people get better. And so to me, that is one of the biggest takeaways that I wanna make sure that anyone who is looking for services understands that not all mental health companies are created the same and that when you can get really, really good care from someone who cares about you. You're going to see that it makes a really big difference in your life.

John Cordray: 35:57

Oh, that's fantastic. Randy, how about you?

Randy Forman: 36:00

You know, I think innovating in healthcare is hard. It's definitely hard for earlier startup companies like path. And so, you know, what I would say is for, for the folks out there listening, you know, when you lean in, when you, you know, reach out to learn more, you know, it, it takes. Folks leading in to help companies like catheter solving real problems, but to help us to create that awareness and to help us scale, which, which helps us better serve you. And so, you know, sort of my call to action is to help, help spread the word and, and to reach out, you know, those partnerships that, that are sort of the, the fuel that will keep us going and allow us to deliver this amazing service. And so don't be shy, reach out. We'd love to love to.

John Cordray: 36:50

And can you, Randy, give us the, the

Randy Forman: 36:52

website. Yeah. So you can go to path mental health do com so www path, mental health.com. Fantastic.

John Cordray: 37:00

That's simple enough. Well, Randy and Cynthia, I just really want again to thank you for coming on the show. It's been a delight to talk with you and learn more about you personally, but also about path and what path is doing to help people in need. It's been fantastic. Getting to know you. Thank you,

Cynthia Grant: 37:19

John. This has been really fun.

John Cordray: 37:22

Oh, that's great. I, I, I am glad to hear that. Well this is really the end of the show. I just really thank you all for listening. I appreciate you. And I want to encourage you to continue to take care of your mental health. And as you know, the mental health today show has been championing your mental health since 2015. Take care. Bye.