Sept. 19, 2022

Group Therapy Learning And Memory Retention Through Proven Strategies With Andrew Bordt

Group Therapy Learning And Memory Retention Through Proven Strategies With Andrew Bordt

Group Therapy Learning And Memory Retention Through Proven Strategies With Andrew Bordt

Andrew is the Executive Director of The Institute for the Advancement of Group Therapy and has been working in the field of education for over 15 years as a teacher, teacher trainer, curriculum designer, and academic administrator. 

Andrew was selected as Employee of the Year for Disney English (The Walt Disney Company) in 2011.

He received his M.Ed from the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign in 2015, is a licensed teacher in the State of Texas, is certified in TEFL through Cambridge University, TELF-C through Columbia University Teacher’s College, EC-STEM through Shanghai Normal University in association with the Children’s Center at Caltech, and is a certified Disney Trainer.

Everyone’s learning process depends on their personal experiences and background. While information is objective, retaining knowledge and recalling a memory can vary from one person to another.

In this episode, Andrew Bordt, the executive director of The Institute for the Advancement of Group Therapy shares the importance of acknowledging individualized learning capabilities.

This means that each person has a way of learning on their own. Whether a person is recovering from an unforeseen circumstance that affected their mental health or has been through a series of life events that they may find too challenging to process, group therapies offer strategies that enable them to cope and recover at their own pace.

With his extensive background in the field of education and training, Andrew has conducted group therapies for diverse patients or learners, both juvenile and mature. Having worked in China for The Walt Disney Company, and expanding his impressive academic credentials, Andrew sees the value in empathy when it comes to teaching and learning.

[Timecodes]
[01:15] Introducing Andrew Bordt
[03:02] What does Andrew focus more on?
[04:32] What is the age range that Andrew works with?
[06:59] Andrew talks about the difference between knowledge and skill.
[10:23] Andrew explains how he got involved with The Institute for the Advancement of Group Therapy.
[13:00] Andrew worked at Disney in Shanghai, China.
[18:17] Group therapy varies.
[21:27] Diversification of instruction helps people learn better.
[23:21] Knowledge retention and memory recall need practice.
[26:15] What are effective activities during group therapy?
[27:25] Andrew shares his self-care routine.
[30:00] What are Andrew’s future plans?


Connect with Andrew Bordt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-bordt/
Visit The Institute for the Advancement of Group Therapy: https://grouptherapycertification.com/

Rate the show: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider providing an honest rating of the show here www.mentalhealthtodayshow.com/reviews/new. Your review will really help the show reach more people - thank you!

Learn more about John Cordray at www.johncordray.com

Disclaimer: The Mental Health Today Show is for educational purposes only and should not be interpreted as therapy. If you are seeking therapy, please contact a licensed therapist for help.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] John Cordray: If you've ever been in a group, whether it's group therapy or maybe just a classroom, and there's a lot of people and it can be intimidating, especially when it's your turn to talk. And group therapy though is so important and, and to be so valuable to somebody. And so we're gonna be talking about that very thing in this episode, and the title of this episode is raising, learning retention and.

[00:00:28] Through proven strategies and delivery skills with Andrew B coming right up. 

[00:00:34] Welcome back to the mental health today. Show my name is John Cordray and I am a licensed therapist in the host of this show. And I am so happy that you have joined us for today.

[00:00:45] I'm really looking forward to this, this. Because it's about group therapy and, and that is something that I don't think I've talked a whole lot about on my show, but it is so important and so powerful and I [00:01:00] wanted to bring on Andrew and, and Andrew is the executive director. Of the Institute for the advancement of group therapy.

[00:01:08] And he's been working in the field of education for over 15 years as a teacher, as a teacher trainer, a curriculum designer and academic administrator, and Andrew was even selected as the employee of the year for Disney English, which is the Walt Disney company in 2011. He received his master's in of education and from the university of Illinois in 2015, he's a licensed teacher in the state of Texas is certified in TFL through Cambridge university.

[00:01:43] T E L F C through Columbia university's teacher college and EC stem through Shanghai, normal university and association with the children's center at Caltech and is a certified Disney trainer. Andrew, [00:02:00] welcome to 

[00:02:00] Andrew Bordt: the show. Thank you so much for having me, John and I, I think you just figured it out that academia has just as many acronyms as behavioral health, huh?

[00:02:09] John Cordray: yes. I tell you it all these acronyms and, and you wanna say them correctly, but it's like who in the, in the world would know exactly what the acronyms mean. Anyway, . 

[00:02:21] Andrew Bordt: I know, so you're right 

[00:02:22] John Cordray: screen. well, Hey, I, I, I wanna get right to it. And I'm really, really excited that you are on here because you, the title is raising, learning retention in recall in you have a lot of experience as an educator and you're doing group therapy.

[00:02:42] Tell me, tell me a little bit about that. Are you a therapist or are you a teacher? What, what is it that would you say was your. 

[00:02:51] Andrew Bordt: Well, that's a fantastic question. I am not a therapist. And actually that is one of that's one of the challenges that I faced so far. I, I do think it, [00:03:00] it might be easy to dismiss some of the points I'm making because I do not have a clinical background.

[00:03:05] However, I, I would argue that that is a logical fallacy because. The points that I am talking about, have everything to do with the neuroscience of how we, as humans learn and tried and true education practice on how to elevate the retention and recall when you're in charge of the learning of a big group of people.

[00:03:27] Because of course, everyone is going to be at, at quite a different level. As far as their working memory, their processing speed background knowledge about a certain topic, even background experiences will, will color the perceptions of, of the information that they are receiving or the skills that they're practicing within a group setting.

[00:03:50] Well, that makes a lot 

[00:03:51] John Cordray: of sense. You don't have to be a, a licensed therapist to run a group therapy because the, the [00:04:00] topics I, I would imagine that you bring up has a lot to do with the learning and education and, and trying to bring retention and recall. I mean, obviously that's a title of our, our. So tell me, Andrew, what, what would be some of the age range that you work with?

[00:04:20] Andrew Bordt: Well, I've actually myself as a teacher, I have worked with children as young as two and all the way through the university and teaching adult classes as well. But right now we're actually working with facilities and clinicians, themselves to deliver clinician training on the delivery side. Education and, and group therapy.

[00:04:43] So let me give you an example. If we have a, we have, we have teacher training, correct? So like after the teachers finish their degree, whether it's in English or math or science, whatever they're teaching, that's separate, that's their degree. That's their [00:05:00] content area. After that, they need an additional certification to be an actual teacher.

[00:05:07] And that focuses on the delivery. And the way I look at it is the clinicians content area. Their area of expertise is helping people recover, helping them accept or acknowledge give them the coping and the recovery skills necessary to leave a me lead a meaningful life outside of the safety of the recovery space or the therapy space.

[00:05:35] So you need, there, there are, there are two components to being, to transporting knowledge and skill to another person. Part of it is being an expertise in your content area. The other part is diversifying instruction is knowing how to find out where your, your patients or your learners are on their journey.

[00:05:59] And making [00:06:00] sure that the lesson is tailored to give them the appropriate amount of desirable, difficulty to challenge them a little bit, but make it obtainable so they don't get frustrated and give up. Hmm. 

[00:06:12] John Cordray: Yeah, that, that, and that's a big point right there because when, when it's not attainable, it is easy to get frustrated.

[00:06:19] And then, and then it's easy to give up and then you don't learn and you don't get the help that you need. 

[00:06:24] Andrew Bordt: Correct. And if it's too easy, I mean, there's a problem there too. And so it, it does take skill to figure out exactly where your learners are and also to provide them as individuals, even though you're in a group setting, the exact support that they need.

[00:06:42] Mm-hmm , 

[00:06:42] John Cordray: that makes a lot of sense. And so what, what exactly then do you talk about in these 

[00:06:47] Andrew Bordt: groups? Well, so again, what, when, when we work with the facilities, when we work with the clinicians, it's actually the workshop that we deliver. And so our workshop begins by challenging [00:07:00] some preconceptions that many clinicians have about how we learn.

[00:07:04] So we address the difference between knowledge and. Again, you cannot, you cannot learn a skill by hearing somebody talk about it, or by watching someone write bullet points on a board. I mean, could you imagine. Learning how to swim from reading a book or learning how to ride a bike from watching somebody else, knowledge and skill are not the same thing.

[00:07:28] You can know what you're supposed to do on a bike. You need to pedal, you need to balance. And, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to do it once you get on that bike. And so a big part of recovery capital, I mean, they are skills. That means they need to. Practiced. And from, from what that we've seen in the group therapy space, as it stands is a lot of didactic instruction, theory, knowledge transfer, and [00:08:00] a lot of people talking one at a time, but that's not how you learn a skill.

[00:08:05] So what I want to do is ask the question, what do we want the patients to learn by the end of this session? What is the most effective way to get them there for everyone in the room? Not just one, because we might have eight or 12, how what's the most effective way for everyone to make progress? How am I going to know if they've obtained?

[00:08:30] What I want them to, what am I gonna do if they haven't, but equally important? What am I gonna do if they have, if I have half of my room that, wow, we've done it on this side, but the other half hasn. What do you do at that point? And those are the questions that we are asking, and we are providing the tools to answer and address well, that's 

[00:08:53] John Cordray: fantastic.

[00:08:54] And, and these are some of the things that are not really taught in, in school. We just not [00:09:00] taught it in and we're taught a lot of other things, but what you're talking about, that's something that, that needs to be taught outside of what we learn in school. So this is a fantastic 

[00:09:10] Andrew Bordt: service. I that, that's why we're here.

[00:09:13] I, I know it is an ambitious goal to, you know, try to change the, the, the lens through which we view group therapy. But I, I look at it as a learning environment and I look at it as precious time. It is very precious time that the therapist gets with their patients. And I think it should be used to the greatest extent possible.

[00:09:36] We need to maximize the learning. We need to maximize the retention and we have decades and decades of research and educational best practice that can be applied in this space. We just need to do. 

[00:09:49] John Cordray: Exactly. And, and there it is, we, we need to apply it and we need to, we need to seek it out from experts like yourself.

[00:09:58] And so I, so I wanna just [00:10:00] kind of veer off just a little bit, and I'm very interested, Andrew of why, why, and, and how did you get involved with the Institute for advancement of group therapy? 

[00:10:14] Andrew Bordt: Well, I'll tell you, John, that I am have been, I still am. I'm in continuous recovery myself and. Through my experience and the recovery process.

[00:10:25] I, I did not have a good experience in group therapy. And I'll tell you, I I've told that to some of the clinicians that I've talked to. It wasn't the right thing to say. because that, that pushes people away pretty fast, but it, it was my experience. Now I have ADHD. My my mind moves very quick and. I wasn't in a great place either while I was in, you know, when I was going to those meetings and, or I was in group therapy.

[00:10:51] So for me, I, I was bouncing my knees up and down. I was looking at the clock. I was wondering when the heck am I gonna get outta [00:11:00] here? And half the time, I didn't even know what the objective was. I didn't even know what I was supposed to be learning. It just seemed like, it seemed like there wasn't a. Like there was, well, let's see how everybody's feeling today and let's see what happens.

[00:11:16] But what I learned, not only through my professional development at Disney, but all, you know, education in, in business hope is not a strategy. So you, you need to come in with some sort of plan, some sort of objective. And if you can get people who are like me or. You know the opposite of me. Like you need to be able to deliver the content to a wide range of personalities and a wide range of people and who have different learning preferences.

[00:11:46] So there are ways to do that again, through divers diversification of instruction, excuse me, and some tried and true teaching practices. That will be very, very effective in the group therapy. [00:12:00] 

[00:12:00] John Cordray: Wow. So, yeah, I, I, I really, really like to hear people who are in leadership of these mental health and, and educational companies, they developed it or, or started, or became a leader in it, out of their own hurt and pain out of their own experiences.

[00:12:21] And I think a lot of times that is the, the best thing, because when you talk to someone, you can say I've been. I know what it's like. I know what it feels like. And, and so that has a lot of, a lot of impact as well. So, which is, is, is fantastic. So you, you mentioned that you worked for Disney for a while. I know it's been a while and I, I, I loved Walt Disney company and I, I would just love to know and learn a little bit about what you did there as.

[00:12:56] Andrew Bordt: Sure. So the year was 2008. I had [00:13:00] just graduated and gotten my teaching credential, but there was a crash, you know, us economy and I could not find a permanent position. Oh, there were only long term substituting jobs available at the, at the schools that I was interested in working in. So I looked outside, I looked abroad and I saw that there was a jobs available in, you know, many different countries.

[00:13:23] But that's a really big risk to take. That's a really big jump. And so I decided I'm gonna go with Shanghai, China, because it's a big city. And because the Walt Disney company is there and it, if I put all my cards out on the table, I that's the that's the version I'm used to telling. I also thought that if I stayed in the United States, I was gonna.

[00:13:47] And because I went, because I knew that China was so serious about drugs. I thought that that was a safe place for me to send myself that's the O that's that's the other reason. [00:14:00] And forgive me for not including that the first time. I'm just so used to telling it the other way. Mm-hmm yeah. So. I thought, you know, I, I heard rumors that in China, if they catch you with drugs, not only will they execute you, but they'll, they'll send the bullet to your parents and make 'em pay for it, make 'em pay for the bullet.

[00:14:19] I don't know if that's ever true, but that that's something that the, the expat community, we always used to tell each other that stuff. And I do know that they, they come in and they'll take foreigners out of bars and. Pluck their hair out and test them and yeah, you will get deported or sent to an reeducation camp or if you're smuggling.

[00:14:39] Yeah. Yes. You, you can be executed. That is for sure. Hmm. So I went, I went there, I went there to try to save my own life, I guess, I guess is one way to look at it. But also no, I was interested in, in living and experience a different culture. Also. I was excited because, you know, I did know Disney and I just, I needed a change.

[00:14:59] The, [00:15:00] the current environment I was in was not working and I, I got out. 

[00:15:06] John Cordray: Well, that is you going to Disney, the kind of the main reason was what you were experiencing. And you said that you thought you were going 

[00:15:15] Andrew Bordt: to die. Yes, I, I, if I, if I had hadn't left, I, I would have, because I mean, I, I was going through withdrawal in the plane and for a couple days after that, but the excitement of being in a brand.

[00:15:31] City and boy, was it exciting that actually helps that help? That that helps a lot, you know, a lot more than, than sitting in bed under the covers. I, I, I don't know why. I, I just, for, for me that being in a brand new place, it, it helped, it helped me kind of refocus and think about what's next. I, I almost accepted that.

[00:15:54] I left a certain part of my life behind and that, that really did work for a while. [00:16:00] Little did I know the drinking culture in China is much, much different and it is quite common to have alcohol over, over lunch. It's and it's everywhere. So the schedule wasn't easy either because when I got there, you know, we were, we were an after school English program.

[00:16:20] So we. We taught Chinese children, English using the, the timeless stories and characters of Disney, which was really, really, it was a fantastic program. And I, and I really loved it, but we worked from about. One 30 in the afternoon to about nine at night. And so after work, all of the expats, we would all go out and, you know, it, it, it, it turned into a, to a new struggle for me essentially, you know, I didn't have to worry about some of the things I was worried about in the United States as much, but my, I, I started drinking heavier and, you know, eventually that, that caught up to me too.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] Hmm. 

[00:17:01] John Cordray: And yet here now, years later, you're not only the executive director, but the co-founder of the Institute for advancement of group therapy. So correct your, your life, your, your experience in your hurt and your pain has come to fruition and all of that, all that past, and the experience that you have now, you are able to bring your skills.

[00:17:31] Your experience and your past together to be able to help these educators help the therapists be able to help their groups in, in group therapy. So I, I, I, I have another question in regards to group therapy for you, Andrew. We hear the term a lot and you know, we, we talk about it, but I don't know if people understand exactly what group therapy is.

[00:17:58] Would you mind kind of the [00:18:00] explaining a little bit, because I think for most people they have in their mind, it maybe a movie, or maybe it's a TV show and maybe it's similar, but are there other things that maybe people aren't really thinking of when it comes to group 

[00:18:13] Andrew Bordt: therapy? That is a great question, John.

[00:18:17] And the problem with answering it is that it varies wildly from place to place. It depends on the facility on who is delivering, or if there are multiple people who are responsible for the group, the size of the group, the, the type of group, whether it's a C, B, T, or a process group. So a more general answer would be, it is a learning environment.

[00:18:43] It is a place where we want a population of people to go so they can gain additional knowledge and skill. So when they leave, they they'll have a better chance than when they walked in. That is, that is the [00:19:00] most simple way for me to explain it because it it's very difficult when we try to pin down a specific model because at.

[00:19:08] Campus or at this center, it's gonna look different from that center. Even places that have an existing curriculum where you'll see the therapist reading from a book, that's not gonna be done the exact same from room to room, even in the same facility. And frankly, The people in the room are gonna be interpreting it differently.

[00:19:28] And that's why I I'm a big proponent of there are multiple paths to recovery, but according to neuroscience and the way we learn, because our schema, our background knowledge, the things that we bring in with us, They are involved in us processing and internalizing information. So even two people in the same exact type of recovery program, they're on their own individual paths because they're hearing and they're, they're receiving different information.

[00:19:56] And 

[00:19:56] John Cordray: that's exactly what I was trying to get at. So what you [00:20:00] just described very eloquently. It's not what we think of when we watch a movie or see a TV show. It's not what Hollywood shows us. It's individualized. Many people come into one room with different backgrounds and they bring a certain energy as well as the instructor, whether it's a therapist or whoever is leading the group.

[00:20:24] And it's, it's a place where we all come together and we learn from one another because your background is different from my background, but both of us, if we are in this group, we can learn from one 

[00:20:36] Andrew Bordt: another. Yes, you're AB you're absolutely correct. Keep going. 

[00:20:40] John Cordray: No. And, and, and I was just gonna say that sometimes people look at and think of group therapy as boring or not good.

[00:20:48] They don't wanna do it. They don't want to talk. And it, they, they think of, well, I just have to do this if they're being made to do it, but it could actually be a very powerful therapy [00:21:00] technique. 

[00:21:01] Andrew Bordt: It absolutely can. And that's why, what we're focusing on is building engagement for everyone involved. And that's what I mean by diversification of instruction.

[00:21:11] You have to diversify the instruction while, while it's true. And this is a misconception like there, there's not. Like left brain, right. Brain, or there's not learning styles. Like for example, you're, you're not a, you're not a visual learner. Your, your entire brain is engaged while you're learning. Okay. We can see this from FMR scans and memories.

[00:21:33] Like when we are exposed to them. You know, they ENCO they're encoded by senses. So you would not be able to recognize a bird's chirp through seeing it, right? The, the, these are all separate memory buckets in our brain. So it's very, very important to deliver information in multiple ways. Like for example, Think of a highway.

[00:21:56] Okay. If a highway is information and I just [00:22:00] told it to you, I just, I just, I told you a new new fact, I just built one arm ramp to that highway. But if you forget what I told you, then you can't get on the highway. Now, if I told you, you said it back to me, you wrote it down. I showed you through an image or a visual, and then I had you do a collaborative problem solving activity.

[00:22:25] Now you have seven on ramps to the same highway. Much more likely you're gonna be able to get to that information if you need to later, because you have seven OnRamps instead of one 

[00:22:36] John Cordray: and that's retention and that's recall, right. 

[00:22:40] Andrew Bordt: That's the first part of it. Yes, . So the, the way, the way neuroscience and, and learning works is.

[00:22:47] We have neurons that link in our brain. When we, when we hear new information or we experience new things, but they, they are not hardened yet. Like they're very easily, very easily forgotten. [00:23:00] Like I could ask you questions, like how many, how many students or, or friends do you remember from sixth grade? Or what did you get for your 12th birthday?

[00:23:09] You're not gonna remember that. Right. Unless it was a very, very meaningful event. If we want to be able to remember and recall, we need to practice, we need to fire those neurons over and over and over again. You can think about it like walking through a forest. The first couple of times, you're just gonna be walking over grass and leaves, but eventually you're going to wear a groove into that dirt.

[00:23:34] And now you're gonna be able to find your path to the destination in the forest. Whenever you. And that's, that's how learning works. And just because, you know, you are struggling with addiction doesn't mean you learn different than everybody else. We all learn the same. 

[00:23:51] John Cordray: I think that's an excellent point.

[00:23:54] Excellent. Because someone who is struggling with addiction and you know what that's like, [00:24:00] right. Absolutely. There's a lot of, a lot of shame that can come from that. And a lot of. Just beating yourself up for it. And, and that it'd be very easy to say to yourself or to think to yourself. I don't learn the same way everyone else is smarter than I am.

[00:24:21] And it's really easy to get into that negative mindset. And, but what you're saying is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're addicted or not. We all learn the same. 

[00:24:30] Andrew Bordt: We do. And not only that, but that's what I think you illustrated how important the clinician is. So I don't want anybody to think that, oh, he, you know, he doesn't think clinicians are doing their jobs effectively.

[00:24:43] No, no, no. Clinicians are incredibly important for the reason that you just said they are. They're the masters of the content. They're the guide. So nobody knows what exact therapeutic intervention might be appropriate for a given moment better than the therapist. Like [00:25:00] they are, they are key. But what we're talking about here is, is separating the, the content mastery from how we're gonna get everybody.

[00:25:09] On on the boat and going as quickly as possible in a very, very short amount of time. You know, we want to increase that practice. We want to increase the patient talk time. So many, even if you were to go on YouTube right now and look up fantastic examples of group therapy, I guarantee you 90% of what you're gonna see is one person talking at a time.

[00:25:32] And let me tell you something. If you are sitting. For an hour, listening to somebody else talk, you're not learning. You're probably not even paying attention. And how will the therapist know what, what you've retained and what you haven't in that situation? They won't. So the, the strategies that we're talking about, I mean, they cover everything from engagement tasks, team [00:26:00] exercises, focus, tasks, setting objectives, scaffolding.

[00:26:06] Like memories and like facilitation there there's, there's so many that we cover, but all of them are designed to help the entire group progress as quickly as possible in the given time. And some pushback I've gotten is, well, what about process groups? If, if, if somebody needs the group to slow down, And they, and they need for, you know, for someone's emotional wellbeing to stop and listen, even if it takes an hour, then that's absolutely what they should do, but they should do it because it's the right thing to do.

[00:26:37] Not because it's the only thing they know how to do. Mm. Big 

[00:26:40] John Cordray: distinction there. Excellent. Andrew. Thank you so much for just talking about what you do and, and just the whole bringing awareness to group therapy and, and how important it really is before I let you go. One of the things I like to do is ask my guest and talk about self [00:27:00] care a lot.

[00:27:02] And it's so important in I, I like to ask my guests because everyone's a little D. When it comes to selfcare. And so I want to ask you, what do you do for self-care? 

[00:27:15] Andrew Bordt: Ooh, what a fantastic question for my self-care. I. I keep my schedule and my routine. It is very, very important to me. So when I get up in the morning, I get coffee for my wife before she gets outta bed.

[00:27:29] I make sure I'm up about a minute before her. I cook breakfast for my daughter, as my daughter's getting ready for school, I go for a run or, or maybe I'll maybe I'll post something on LinkedIn first and then I'll, and then I'll go for a run. And I, I, I just, I have, I have my schedule and that's how I take care of.

[00:27:47] Really. And then I, I don't know if that's too simple or what you're looking for, but that's, I keep my schedule. That's how I take care of myself. No, 

[00:27:54] John Cordray: I, I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just wanna know what you do because everyone's different. Just like you said a little [00:28:00] bit ago, we're all different and we're all on different paths and we can learn from each 

[00:28:04] Andrew Bordt: other and give it, yeah.

[00:28:08] Exercise, sleep, give and be a role model. That's what, that's my self care. 

[00:28:12] John Cordray: Oh, nice. I love that. Well, if any of our, my listeners were interested in reaching out or, or trying to find you, where would they go? Like, do you have a website that you can give? I know we're gonna give a lot of it into our show notes, but what is your, the best website or best form of contact for you?

[00:28:31] Andrew Bordt: Well, you can either find me on LinkedIn or go to group therapy, certification.com. You can see there everything that we have to offer and also few articles and some, some research documents and things. So when I, you know, when I say that the skills are, are tried and true practice, they're, they're proven to work.

[00:28:52] I'm not using that as a buzzword. In fact we can, we can post the links to some of the research in, in the comment section too. I don't mind sending that to you. [00:29:00] If you. But I'm, I'm happy to talk to anybody more about this. I do wanna connect, especially if you're a doubter, if you don't believe in what I'm saying, please let's talk.

[00:29:10] I, I, you know, I'd love to learn something from you. Maybe you can learn something, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, right? 

[00:29:16] John Cordray: Oh, that's great. Excellent. Well, yeah, if you're a doubter, reach out to Andrew, for sure. All right. Well, I, I'm gonna just kind of close the episode here, but I just, again, wanna thank you so much for coming on and, and taking some time to share with my audience about what you do and, and the importance of group therapy and it is greatly needed.

[00:29:39] And, and there may be therapists out there that really are interested in learning more as well. And maybe they want to be a part of this themselves. 

[00:29:48] Andrew Bordt: Yeah, that'd be fantastic. So our, our program does count for CEU hours in addition to the certification. What we're really trying to do is. Certify in entire [00:30:00] facilities would be, would be the best way.

[00:30:01] And that way it would bring more consistency to the delivery across an organization. That's a, that's a big thing for me. You know, it's part about being at Disney and ex and expanding from three schools to 44 schools. I I'm really big on quality and consistency across the board. And so my preferred way is to get everybody certifi.

[00:30:20] John Cordray: I like that a lot. Well, thanks again, Andrew, for coming on and I want to thank you all for listening to this show. I hope it was helpful and beneficial to you and encouraging to you. And I want to encourage you all to continue to work on yourself and remember the mental health today show has been championing your mental.

[00:30:41] Since 2015, take care. And bye bye.